combining skills into Stealth a good thing?

[Goken100]

They could probably do it with a few skills

move sil/hide should be combined and used as an opposed roll against perception (listen/spot/scent) combination

The skill list is a bit long. I certainly think some of the knowledges should be combined as well (like spellcraft/know,arcana)

to counter maybe dont add Int bonus to number of skill points (Int is used in a fair number of skills, so wont be a dump stat more than it is).

I think the more hi-tech, modern, scifi you get some of these skills need to be combined otherwise the skill set gets to big.

For example swim should be a feat, and you use the 'athlectics' skill (which is mainly used for climb and jump as well). Everyone can jump or climb, not everyone can swim, so without the feat you cant succeed in a DC over 10. Hmm, dont know if i have explained that well?

JohnD

I think an Athletics skill is something I could get behind more easily, because the component skills (Swim, Jump, Climb) aren't used as heavily as the other 4 we've been discussing.

On the same note, I could see combining Open Lock and Disable Device into one... maybe a Device Tinker skill.

As for Stealth and Perception, there are convincing arguments both for and against. Thus I think it wise not to stray from the rulebook on this one. When in doubt, don't change the rules. =/

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Anyways, @Sabathius42, if I'm interperting your logic correctly, one could conceivably have a character who's been deafened (no successful Listen checks for him) perceive an opponent on the other side of a stone wall or around a curve or within a darkness effect by the 'perception' skill - the combination of Spot and Listen, yes, I will concede that the character(not deafened) could probably fairly easily hear the aforementioned opponent, he shouldn't be able to see the opponent.
If I'm misinterperting your meaning, please, clarify it.

You miss the point of having a "Perception" or "Notice" skill as opposed to Spot and Listen.

Lets say adventurer X is walking down the road and a skunk is hiding behind a wall ready to ambush him.

By the RAW, X has a chance of hearing the skunk, even if the skunk is standing motionless. The DC would be really really high but it could be done.

By the RAW, X has a chance of spotting a skunk behind the wall, if the wall is short enough the skunks head or tail could stick up, but has no chance of spotting him if the wall is higher.

Either way you have a small chance to know a skunk is there to bushwhack you, using the RAW.

Now, completely ignored in all this is the nose. I guarantee you if a skunk is hiding behind the wall you would know long before you get into spot or listen range...but you would know its around. Having a Perception skill would roll all the sense into one "notice things chance" incorporating every way you could notice them (including magical ones). Just because you PERCEIVE someone doesn't mean you zero in on them exactly to the 5' square. How hard should it be to spot an invisible troglodyte? I say not very hard. You spot with your nose.

DS

 

[Plane Sailing]

This is really a sorta house rules discussion, so I'm going to move it over there.

Cheers

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Something that I'd like to point out is that certain classes have only one of the 'notice' skills as class skills; bards and barbs only have Listen while shadowcasters only have spot. To my knowledge, there is no class that has only one of the 'stealthy' skills as a class skill.

This may or may not unbalance a notice/stealth skill system, but it's something to think about.

 

[Stone Dog]

I am 100% in favor such a thing. I have never had a problem justifying Notice as my sensory skill. If an eagle rolls Notice then the eagle sees something. If a bat rolls notice then the bat more likely hears something. Sure alot of gamers want to have keen eyes as opposed to keen ears, but I've never run into anybody who has a problem with just being keen in general.
The same goes with Stealth. You don't want to be Noticed? Be stealthy!

The thing about Open Locks and Disable Device is just brilliant though. I will have to use it at my next game.

And then what about Search? Why is that not perception. Argg it breaks my brain so I don’t bovver.

Search isn't just sensing though. It is also the intelligent effort of finding something deliberately hidden. That is why it is even based on Int instead of Wis. It isn't just seeing and feeling, but having the brains to know what you are looking for and where it would be.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Everyone that's mentioned it has thought its the most obvious and nifty simplification ever. I don't see what the big deal is, and would be somewhat reluctant to try it out.

I felt the same way for all the same reasons. Then I tried a few variant rule sets that had those worked into them and so I was forced to use them.

I noticed that across the board, competence went up, reducing the demand for magic items such as boots and cloaks of elvenkind, eyes of the eagle, rings of glibness and so forth. Once characters actually had the skill ranks needed to do those things, they focused their gold into weapons, armor, potions and spare diamonds (those rezzes are expensive).
This is good because those items tend to be key to most of the omgwtfbr0ken skill-based builds I've seen, so I don't feel bad at their disapearance from the game.

If you think that the level of skills competence in the game is just fine then there is no need for such a change and introducing it would increase the power level (albeit slightly) of everything. If you feel that there are not enough skill points, even for a 38 (natural starting) Int human Rogue, then you'll want to make changes in this direction.
It all comes down to how you want to play the game.

 

[Thanatos]

I took MS/H and combined them into Sneak and L/S and combined them into Perception.

It really just seemed to make sense to me. It cut down on the rolls and text-wise from the book, they were both worded in a very similiar fashion. It was tough at first, because in all D&D there was MS and H and it was tradition, but I wanted to see how it would work.

By the same token, Perception seemed to make sense to me as well, mechanically speaking. Even those classes who only had L or S, still essentially had a chance to Perceive someone Sneaking.

I took Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana and combined them into Arcana. I have always felt those skills were somewhat interchangable anyway and in all my experiences, they were generally used interchangably.

Open Lock and Disable Device though, I am gonna have to think about that one...

I also did not knock down any of the skill points of the classes either. I don't mind the players having a few more skill points to put in skills. I actually allow my players to pick between 1-3 skills to use as "Class Skills" providing they are incorporated into their characters background/history.

Between allowing additional non-cross class skills and freeing up a couple of skill points here and there, I found players taking more of a diversity of skills right off and still focusing on just a few as they levelled up.

I inevitably add in a few skills through the course of a campaign anyway as players end up needing a more specific kind of skill for some goal of theirs (or because of campaign demands) and the combines I have done make that a bit less of a burden.

So based on my experiences, I advocate combining a few of the skills here and there. While the skill monkey classes really get the biggest benefit of this, I've never found it to be unbalancing.

 

[NilesB]

I think an Athletics skill is something I could get behind more easily, because the component skills (Swim, Jump, Climb) aren't used as heavily as the other 4 we've been discussing.

On the same note, I could see combining Open Lock and Disable Device into one... maybe a Device Tinker skill.

As for Stealth and Perception, there are convincing arguments both for and against. Thus I think it wise not to stray from the rulebook on this one. When in doubt, don't change the rules. =/

On That note you could fold balance into tumble, and split spellcraft between the appropriate knowledge skills.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Here's the problem that I have with Spot and Listen as two separate skills. Spot is seeing things, and listen is hearing them. In the PHB, their basic purposes are to defeat hide and move silently. But for non-hiding related spot checks, where are the other senses? Touch? Taste? Smell? (yes, I realise that there is a "scent" ability, but people can still identify things by smell) Where do they fall? That's why I like the idea of one "Notice" skill.

I agree. Strange that "Scent" is a feat/monster ability, and not a skill that monsters get racial bonuses on.

However, because of the nature of Spot and Listen (as counters to Hide and Move Silently) if you lump one group together, you have to lump them both together. It does place skill-heavy classes at an advantage, but there are a few things you can do.

You say:

- Make the new 2 skills cross-class for everyone so that they still cost 2 points to get.

I hear: "Let's reduce the max ranks possible in the skills to 1/2 what they were, without doing a single thing to the various bonuses (competence, racial, enhancement, etc..) available, thus making the bonuses and the d20 roll itself more crucial to success than actual training in the skill!"

You say:

- Reduce the number of skill points per-level by one for classes that have these skills as class skills.

I hear: "Let's nerf the classes with these skills, even for characters who weren't planning to put ranks in them to begin with, all the while not hurting the other classes who could just pour in cross-class skill points into these juicy double-skills without any penalty whatsoever!"

Or, if you only reduce the class skills for people who take ranks in these skills: "Let's add a bunch more words to the RAW without actually changing anything in effect!" (Normal - I take spot and listen, and it takes out 2 of my skill points; "Revised" - I take 'Perception' for one skill point, and the fact that i have it combined costs me one skill point. 1 + 1 = 2)

- Don't worry about it, because no matter what you do, your players will find some way to cheat the system.

QFT

 

[reanjr]

Now, completely ignored in all this is the nose. I guarantee you if a skunk is hiding behind the wall you would know long before you get into spot or listen range...but you would know its around. Having a Perception skill would roll all the sense into one "notice things chance" incorporating every way you could notice them (including magical ones). Just because you PERCEIVE someone doesn't mean you zero in on them exactly to the 5' square. How hard should it be to spot an invisible troglodyte? I say not very hard. You spot with your nose.

DS

So have the character make a Wisdom check...