D&D 5E Counterspell fix/rework

[zaratul666]

Hello, this is my first time posting and I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this or if this was even done before. (from my quick search of google I didn't find anything similar)

So I'd like to start by stating that I've read quite a few post that discussed and also Jeremy Crawford tweet on how the use Arcana checks as a reaction to identify the spell prevent you from using Counter Spell, which is also a reaction. Ive also read a few post where the modify the DC, modified the spell itself, etc. but it wasn't exactly what I was looking for, so here I am.

A few thing about the way the current counter spell works bugs me.

1. The DC never takes into account the casters ability into account.
2. If the spell is unknown for the counter speller, it become a guessing game, where you could waste a spell slot.
3. If the spell and level is known, becomes, in my option, an easy "you don't get to act this round" button without any sort of check.
4. The ability check only increase with ability score bonus and not if a higher spell level slot counter spell is used.

So here goes my attempt:

1. Sort of easy to fix; include the casters casting ability into the DC.
2/3. I propose that the Arcana check be a free action, but only gives the name of the spell and at the same time will give the minimum level the spell can be cast as and NOT the actual spell level used (if upcasted). The DC should be the same as described in XGtE. Or alternatively generous DM/player could also just tell the player/DM the spell being used but that the level of it.
4. Use the counter spell slot level as a bonus the the ability check.

To remove the hit or miss feel to counter spell I've changed the DC calculation and also changed the ability check bonuses.
DC = (casted spell level x 2) + casting ability + 2 (this is explained in the google sheet)
Ability Check = 1d20 + (counter spell spell slot x 2) + casting ability

I've made a google sheet, with the success rate of the normal version of counter spell, and below with the new one.
It makes upcasting counterspell more reliable the closer you are to the actual spell level being cast, but keeping it very close to the original for the % chance of success on a level 3 counterspell vs a level 9 spell.
Also makes more sense (to me anyway) that ability scores are taken into account from both sides.

What do you guys think, is it usable ? Too much rolling and going to slow down game ?

New Counterspell Test

 

[DND_Reborn]

Welcome to the forums!

Not bad changes and if they work for you, kudos!

FWIW, we just made it that you always have to roll for Counterspell and Dispel Magic, no automatic successes.

Also, a common mistake many tables make is to allow the caster of counterspell to add their proficiency bonus--THEY DON'T! It only uses your spellcasting ability score modifier. Only the Abjuration school wizards at level 10+ get to add their proficiency bonus to the counterspell check.

So, if you have a level 4 spell and DC 14, even with a +5 ability score modifier there is a 40% chance you won't counter the spell.

Finally, to address your issue on the target caster's ability. Now, I can understand your logic. If a DC 16 fireball is harder to save against than a DC 14 fireball, why isn't it harder to counter? Because a lot of spells don't use saves and aren't affected by the caster's level or ability. For example a Fly spell. A Fly spell cast by a 5th level PC with +3 spellcasting mod is the same as a Fly spell cast by a 20th level PC with a +5 modifier. This was done to keep casters' power levels in check. So, it is the same spell and countering or dispelling it shouldn't be affected by the target caster's ability.

At any rate, we've found that simply insisting on the check instead of it being automatic and understanding proficiency bonus does not apply to the check has made a big difference.

As far as recognizing the spell and choosing to counterspell it: you just don't have time. Spells that require only an action, bonus action, or reaction to cast are fast enough IMO that by the time you recognize it, you are probably too late to counter it. Of course, nothing prevents one PC from using their reaction to determine what the spell is and another PC using their reaction to counter it since you can generally speak freely at anytime during the round.

 

[Bacon Bits]

All we did to fix Counterspell was eliminate the "At Higher Levels" clause. Otherwise we play it as written.

We allow characters with spellcasting (and those with pact magic ) or those who are proficient in Arcana to identify spells that are seen being cast for free (edit: no die roll required because it's not worth the time to roll the die). If the DM is being lazy (which is often when it's me) they'll just say what the spell is, but the idea is to try to describe what the spell will do in general terms without telling the player exactly what it is. We don't hide the spell level, but it's not really that useful to know anymore other than "above 3rd level".

 

[NotAYakk]

How about:

• As a reaction you can attempt to identify a spell whose components you can see or hear before the spell goes off. The DC is 10+twice the spell level (not the slot level). (After a spell goes off, the DC is 10+the spell level, but at that point it is too late to counter it)
• If the DC is under your passive arcana (10+intelligence(arcana) bonus), you don't have to spend that reaction.
• You can choose to cast counterspell as part of that reaction. You know what you rolled (so if you roll a 20, you know the spell is at least 6th level).
• The DC to counter a spell is 5 times the spell's slot level. You always have to make a check, there are no automatic counterspells.
• At higher levels: you gain a +4 bonus to your check for every slot level higher than 3.
• You cannot cast two spells at the same time that use the same components. So if you care casting a spell with a S component, you cannot counterspell a counterspell on your spell.

To identify a 9th level spell in time to counter it, it is a DC 28. To counter it, it is DC 45.

An abjurer using a 9th level slot with 20 int has a +35 to her counterspell check (10+) (5 int + 6 proficiency + 24 from higher level slot). A non-abjurer has a +29 (needs to roll a 16+).

A level 5 wizard with a 18 int has a +4 to the check, and countering a level 3 fireball is DC 15, success on a 11+.

---

Design notes:
1. You have to burn your reaction before you commit your slot. But you still get to counter. Baiting counterspells with cantrips works. This also makes it "not free".

2. The fact you know the roll (and hence have a floor on the spell level) is an awesome emergent feature. "You don't know what they are casting, but it is a big nasty spell".

3. Action economy of counterspell is way too good. Burning an identical resource plus a reaction to shut down an enemy action is stupid strong. The "always roll" and scaling DC means using a higher level slot makes it more reliable, using a lower level slot usually fails, and using an identical level slot an abjurer has a 50-50 chance of succeeding.

Burning a 3rd level slot and a reaction for a 50-50 chance to shut down the enemy's 3rd level slot and their action is a powerful move.

4. I didn't include the caster's spellcasting modifier for a few reasons. First, it makes the math for the DC easier (and this is already complex). Second, spellcasters primary attribute is already insanely powerful, adding it here makes the problem worse.

5. Higher level slots get harder to cast faster than higher level slots make countering stronger intentionally. You can shut down lesser spellcasters easier than you can shut down higher level spellcasters with these rules. Two evenly matched, higher level spellcasters won't be counterspell ping-pong; they will try to counter, but it will only sometimes work.

Note that a level 20 bard with glibness and 20 cha has a min counterspell roll of 23.

To reliably counter a 9th level spell (DC 45) they need a +22 from the counterspell, or a 9th level spell slot.

(Countering an 8th needs an 8th, 7th needs a 6th, 6th needs a 5th, 5th needs a 4th, 4th and lower needs a 3rd.)

In comparison, before this, a 20th level bard with glibness and 12 charisma auto-counters every spell with a 3rd level slot.

6. The "counter counter" game is reduced to when someone is using a no-S spell, like a power word. Even then, it is reduced because it requires a check. Still, an archmage will be able to power through a level 5 wizards defences.

 

[zaratul666]

interresting way of calculating the dc's. but im not sure i like the idea of only having a 20% succes rate of counterspelling a level 9 spell using level 9 counterspell (in normal circumstance). using a specific class/build as a reference will make all other class seem subpar. the abjurer IS supposed to be better at counterspelling not normal at it.

as for the bard. i dont see it as a problem. first he needs to use his only level 8 slot for glibness. and than use another level 3 slot (one of three) to counter a spell. it is true that even if that spell would be a level 9 it would be automatic success. but it cost him one level 8 AND one level 3 and would also only effective for 1 hour. so the rest of the adventuring day would be back to "normal".

 

[Gadget]

IMHO, Counterspell has added more trouble to the game than it is worth. Many tables seem to give automatic knowledge of what spell and level is being cast--and thereby making it too much of a no brainer--or try to follow the RAW with identifying the spell and possibly gambling on what spell slot to use and making the check counter a spell, which kind of slows down the game and adds more processing. Yes, it can be cool to completely negate what the other guy is doing, until it is done to you.

Something as simple as Guidance can make the check on Counterspell much easier. I'm sure there are other ways (Bard's Jack-of-all-trades, Abjurer ability) to make the check a lot easier as well.

 

[Stalker0]

IMHO, Counterspell has added more trouble to the game than it is worth.

this.

i have tried 3 different house rules of counter spell in 3 Different campaigns. Finally for my latest one I just dropped the spell, and I’ve never looked back.

 

[zaratul666]

ill see how it goes. but removing it completly might actually be the simplest and probably most efficient solution. even though removing anything in any game feels like being cheated out of something (players perspective)