D&D 5E CR 13 dragon beaten by level 7 party observations

[Moorcrys]

Just glancing at the white dragon entry, if I were an adult white I'd seal up my lair with ice whenever I was in there, particularly if I didn't have any minions - the white dragon has both a wall of ice legendary action and one of the regional effects is that icy walls block off areas of the dragon's lair (that it can break through without effort). I'd say that all entrances to the white's lair (except *possibly* the main entrance, except even then I'd seal that up if I were alone) would be sealed by the Region Effect: Icy Walls. The sounds of adventurers smashing away at the walls would trigger its legendary perception checks or give it a few moments to position itself as well as prepare - set up freezing fog, cast its *1* potential 4th level spell due to its 12 Charisma, etc. ;-)

I'm sure it'd get crushed anyway by a well-prepared party, but at the very least I'd make it almost impossible to surprise or surround a dragon without a ton of effort.

 

[Sacrosanct]

D&D (and most RPGs) have always been wonky when trying to compare the strength of humanoids with monsters. I mean, how many people are stronger than a clydsdale horse? I can't think of any. But in D&D land? Lots of people (it has STR 18).

 

[Dausuul]

Think about King Kong, do you really think a human being is going to win an opposed Grapple test with him? That's the actual act of his hand gripping the person.

No. That is the act of him picking the spot to grab, making the attempt, and the person failing to dodge his hand. That's why there's no attack roll involved in a grapple attempt, and why you're allowed to defend with your choice of Acrobatics or Athletics.

Again, have you ever tried to grab a cat that didn't want to be grabbed? The cat may well go right under your feet (through your space), but it's still hard to get hold of, because it's small and fast and agile--high Acrobatics skill, in other words. Being small makes it a harder target, not an easier one.

 

[Moorcrys]

D&D (and most RPGs) have always been wonky when trying to compare the strength of humanoids with monsters. I mean, how many people are stronger than a clydsdale horse? I can't think of any. But in D&D land? Lots of people (it has STR 18).

Also, I'm sure I can make it up, but I really wish they also had some extra guidelines for running huge creatures like adult dragons in combat - I mean they should be able to use their bulk while they're moving to try and crush medium-sized or smaller creatures in their way, they should be able to swallow whole small or medium-sized creatures, etc. I'm all for giving 'legendary' monsters like dragons some extra bells and whistles - particularly if you're going to run them truly solo with no minion support.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

No. That is the act of him picking the spot to grab, making the attempt, and the person failing to dodge his hand. That's why there's no attack roll involved in a grapple attempt, and why you're allowed to defend with your choice of Acrobatics or Athletics.

Again, have you ever tried to grab a cat that didn't want to be grabbed? The cat may well go right under your feet (through your space), but it's still hard to get hold of, because it's small and fast and agile--high Acrobatics skill, in other words. Being small makes it a harder target, not an easier one.

Diff'rnt strokes, I suppose.

When push comes to shove and a dragon is in a position to grapple you, it should be tougher to escape than getting out of your big brother's Full Nelson.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Also, I'm sure I can make it up, but I really wish they also had some extra guidelines for running huge creatures like adult dragons in combat - I mean they should be able to use their bulk while they're moving to try and crush medium-sized or smaller creatures in their way, they should be able to swallow whole small or medium-sized creatures, etc. I'm all for giving 'legendary' monsters like dragons some extra bells and whistles - particularly if you're going to run them truly solo with no minion support.

Yep. Like the example in my OP. I was a halfling fighter. I got hit with a tail swipe (legendary action). Even though there was no rule for me to go flying, the DM ruled that with a solid hit that I took, I would have flown a number of feet equal to the damage, except I was already up against the wall. So instead I just got smashed into it

 

[Dausuul]

Diff'rnt strokes, I suppose.

When push comes to shove and a dragon is in a position to grapple you, it should be tougher to escape than getting out of your big brother's Full Nelson.

You keep talking about the grapple attempt as if the dragon's claw is guaranteed to hit you any time it tries, and the only question is whether you can physically wrestle the beast into submission.

 

[fjw70]

No, it didn't. This was a one-off "just for fun" type of game that was basically arena combat.

Re: the solo CR issue I mentioned, it wasn't just this one time, but in an actual campaign it came up too. I think the best solution is minions, rather than beefing up or legendary actions. LA sure helps, sure, but minions spread the save or suck spells around a bit, and draws the attention of the party away from just being able to blow their load in one or two rounds right at the big baddie.

For example, with minions, PCs would have disadvantage shooting the big baddie from range if the minions were up in their face, so just a handful of minions could have a dramatic affect.

And in my campaigns all the way from the beginning, a creature like a dragon would have lots of minions around. Not to mention several challenges the PCs would have to fact just getting there. That's one reason why I am not too worried about a 7th level party beating a CR13 solo creature. I'd be really interested to hear how a 4th level party beat an adult blue dragon (mentioned earlier), because that I can't get my head around We were set up perfectly in our scenario: full resources, magic items, unescapable lair, etc.

Understood. It did sound like fun.

It does illustrate something I had been thinking about. I really liked the 4e surprise rounds where you only take a single action. I was thinking about in 5e not allowing additional actions (and possibly not bonus actions) during a surprise round.

 

[Blackwarder]

As a side note, does the DMGS have an option to pick a creature up and use it to smash another creature? I remember Chris Perkins saying something about that a while ago.

Warder

 

[Tormyr]

As a side note, does the DMGS have an option to pick a creature up and use it to smash another creature? I remember Chris Perkins saying something about that a while ago.

Warder

I have not seen any, but the existing rules seem to give enough leeway to grab a creature and smash another with it. In the dragon dropping someone on someone else example, a ranged dex attack without proficiency against the target's AC would work. Hit. Both receive the fall damage or split the fall damage between the two. Miss. Only the dropped creature receives the fall damage.