Well, fair warning, I'm planning on putting another continent to the west, because we need one. Pangaea can bite me.ironregime said:Yeah, that's fine; I will incorporate those changes into the next version. The world keeps getting bigger... maybe I'll have to zoom the map out a bit. Knowing my luck, as soon as I do, the next contribution will say, "and far to the east of O'hoa'ti'neumas is yet another kingdom."
Oh yeah, nice place names, BTW.
ironregime
Creative Exercise: The Sovereign Dominion of Eyros
Khorod
First Post
We can have a general overmap, and additional continental maps. You weren't doing anything else, right ironregime?
As the author of Bloodtooth's thing, I can clarify the point of what I intended. Basically, the Gnomes were powerful, creepy allies to the lords of the land. What follows I would almost just make a Contribution... but its still sort of between the lines so I'll continue.
At that time, they were sort of a parallel organization to the Masks, just with different functions and a much greater degree of independence. But they weren't a separate body within Eyros. As such, one of the highest official positions in the land was being in charge of the gnomes. They weren't distrusted, so much as they weren't viewed as a partial extension of the ruling class as they are now.
***
Now, the Enforcer Masks I like. Except for one problem- it is actually a secret that the bond weakens beyond the border, implying few Masks have ever been allowed to leave the borders.
According to the Cultist Colos post, the most popular excepted theory is that foreign blood (or land washed in foreign blood) somehow weakens the bond, not simply being outside the borders.
That being the case, two things immediately spring to mind-
1) the Enforcers are fairly new, and their experiences triggered Colos' research, and
2) With the announcement of his findings (and the subsequent legislation being debated on the Senate floor) the Enforcers are all wearing elaborate clothing including full helms and gauntlets.
I really like the image of these childlike, battle-focused Elven spellcasters in this metal gear, under orders not to touch anything. They're probably as jittery as children in a candy shop, and they're the Masks that have all the battle magic.
As the author of Bloodtooth's thing, I can clarify the point of what I intended. Basically, the Gnomes were powerful, creepy allies to the lords of the land. What follows I would almost just make a Contribution... but its still sort of between the lines so I'll continue.
At that time, they were sort of a parallel organization to the Masks, just with different functions and a much greater degree of independence. But they weren't a separate body within Eyros. As such, one of the highest official positions in the land was being in charge of the gnomes. They weren't distrusted, so much as they weren't viewed as a partial extension of the ruling class as they are now.
***
Now, the Enforcer Masks I like. Except for one problem- it is actually a secret that the bond weakens beyond the border, implying few Masks have ever been allowed to leave the borders.
According to the Cultist Colos post, the most popular excepted theory is that foreign blood (or land washed in foreign blood) somehow weakens the bond, not simply being outside the borders.
That being the case, two things immediately spring to mind-
1) the Enforcers are fairly new, and their experiences triggered Colos' research, and
2) With the announcement of his findings (and the subsequent legislation being debated on the Senate floor) the Enforcers are all wearing elaborate clothing including full helms and gauntlets.
I really like the image of these childlike, battle-focused Elven spellcasters in this metal gear, under orders not to touch anything. They're probably as jittery as children in a candy shop, and they're the Masks that have all the battle magic.
Rystil Arden
First Post
Heh, that's awesome!
Arkhandus
First Post
Let me run some quick calculations by the DMG..... Mind you, this is just what a typical D&D setting would look like with regards to a nation's population, Eyros may be less magically-inclined (less mages/priests), or more combatively-inclined (more soldiers), or not.
Given that Eyros is a ~3,000 year old empire, Eyrdeyn probably qualifies as a Metropolis. So over 25,000 adults in the population, let's say 30,000 for a nice round number. By the DMG, about 300 of the inhabitants of Eyrdeyn are full-time guards/soldiers defending the place, and about 150 inhabitants are part-time militiamen or the equivalent (i.e. conscripts), trained to protect the city. Considering the likely demographics, there are probably few or no barbarians, so I won't consider them for this calculation. However, from what's been described so far, druids and rangers aren't likely to be all that rare, just very uncommon probably, so they will be considered.
EDITED OUT UNNECESSARY CONTENT
Now then, there are approximately 120 sorcerers and wizards combined in Eyrdeyn by that count, which is 0.004% of the city's population. If we assume the same percentage throughout Eyros.....
For Eyros' overall demographics, let's consider each of the Pillars' home cities to be a Large City (population: ~18,000 adults). Then, let's suppose that for each province, there's not only the one Large City but also one Small City, two Large Towns, three Small Towns, four Villages, five Hamlets, and six Thorps. Plus there's the council-ruled Mhur, center of Eyros' industry, probably a Large City itself. So..... Each Small City has ~7,000 adults, each Large Town has ~3,000, each Small Town ~1,000, each Village ~600, each Hamlet ~200, and each Thorp around 50 adults. Thus, each province has about... 37,700 adult residents. Times 6 provinces, plus Mhur and Eyrdeyn, we get a likely population of the Dominion at....274,200 people in Eyros excluding children.
Probably 2-3 times that in children, for a total of around 1 million Eyrians, assuming the population is still climbing somewhat, around 700,000-800,000 Eyrians if declining in population.
0.004% of a total population of 274,200 people is.....a total of 1,097 wizards and sorcerers combined, in Eyros, supposedly. Smaller than I thought, huh? If we go by that number, then the 400 or so Masks already mentioned would be almost half the major arcane casters of the Sovereignty, with the Praes Thanatos making up probably a similar number or less... In which case I should probably reduce my posts' mention of 3,000 Enforcer Masks to just 200-300, leaving around 300-400 or so Praes Thanatos mages in Eyros. Excluding bards, adepts, clerics, druids, etc.
Thoughts?
Given that Eyros is a ~3,000 year old empire, Eyrdeyn probably qualifies as a Metropolis. So over 25,000 adults in the population, let's say 30,000 for a nice round number. By the DMG, about 300 of the inhabitants of Eyrdeyn are full-time guards/soldiers defending the place, and about 150 inhabitants are part-time militiamen or the equivalent (i.e. conscripts), trained to protect the city. Considering the likely demographics, there are probably few or no barbarians, so I won't consider them for this calculation. However, from what's been described so far, druids and rangers aren't likely to be all that rare, just very uncommon probably, so they will be considered.
EDITED OUT UNNECESSARY CONTENT
Now then, there are approximately 120 sorcerers and wizards combined in Eyrdeyn by that count, which is 0.004% of the city's population. If we assume the same percentage throughout Eyros.....
For Eyros' overall demographics, let's consider each of the Pillars' home cities to be a Large City (population: ~18,000 adults). Then, let's suppose that for each province, there's not only the one Large City but also one Small City, two Large Towns, three Small Towns, four Villages, five Hamlets, and six Thorps. Plus there's the council-ruled Mhur, center of Eyros' industry, probably a Large City itself. So..... Each Small City has ~7,000 adults, each Large Town has ~3,000, each Small Town ~1,000, each Village ~600, each Hamlet ~200, and each Thorp around 50 adults. Thus, each province has about... 37,700 adult residents. Times 6 provinces, plus Mhur and Eyrdeyn, we get a likely population of the Dominion at....274,200 people in Eyros excluding children.
Probably 2-3 times that in children, for a total of around 1 million Eyrians, assuming the population is still climbing somewhat, around 700,000-800,000 Eyrians if declining in population.
0.004% of a total population of 274,200 people is.....a total of 1,097 wizards and sorcerers combined, in Eyros, supposedly. Smaller than I thought, huh? If we go by that number, then the 400 or so Masks already mentioned would be almost half the major arcane casters of the Sovereignty, with the Praes Thanatos making up probably a similar number or less... In which case I should probably reduce my posts' mention of 3,000 Enforcer Masks to just 200-300, leaving around 300-400 or so Praes Thanatos mages in Eyros. Excluding bards, adepts, clerics, druids, etc.
Thoughts?
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Rystil Arden
First Post
I agree with the calculations almost completely except that we planned from the beginning to cut down on high-level NPC locals based on the DMG, so I would halve the high level ones (12th-level or above) but keep the lower-level numbers completely intact.
Yeah, I thought 3,000 was pretty high. However, if we stay at 1000ish (which is about what I figured we had before), the Enforcers would need to be even smaller in number, to make up for the freelancers and Arcaneum. This is why I thought that having super-large numbers of wizards in the Arcaneum was not a good idea (and why my number of 20 was not in the least an attempted slight at the idea; 20 is 2% of all wizards in Eyros).
How's this: 400 normal Masks, 350 PT, 200 enforcer Masks, 150 all others combined
Yeah, I thought 3,000 was pretty high. However, if we stay at 1000ish (which is about what I figured we had before), the Enforcers would need to be even smaller in number, to make up for the freelancers and Arcaneum. This is why I thought that having super-large numbers of wizards in the Arcaneum was not a good idea (and why my number of 20 was not in the least an attempted slight at the idea; 20 is 2% of all wizards in Eyros).
How's this: 400 normal Masks, 350 PT, 200 enforcer Masks, 150 all others combined
Khorod said:
Thanks!
I don't know a ton about wikis, though I learn rather quickly. I picked this one because I found it, it looked good, and I wanted to get going (the VfD popped up on wikipedia right as I started moving stuff over there, so I had to find somewhere else fast if the wiki was to get underway.) Anyway, what are heading-specific links?
P.S.: Economy, Magic, NPCs, Organizations, Planes, and Races have all been semi-organized; starting this weekend I'll go through and organize the bigger pages. For now, I'm leaving awkward wordings as they are, unless they don't make sense. We can always make things look nice later.
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Rystil Arden
First Post
OK, I'm getting the vibe that a lot of people feel distracted or annoyed by contrib discussions that get long here, so I am going to institute a new policy that I shall follow (no one else needs do so if they do not wish it). Instead of being iffy and thinking of ways around things, which doesn't seem to work so well, if I see something that I think should be changed, I will make a post afterwards that say Suggested Edits: and then the suggested edits. At this point, I hope the original poster will either post "Agreed." and change it or post "Let's chat." and then send an e-mail to RystilArden@hotmail.com (a new address I made that I will not be checking unless someone here lets me know to do so). I'll run with this for a while and see if it makes things better.
~Rystil Arden, Cucullus Umbra
~Rystil Arden, Cucullus Umbra
I thought that the DMG numbers as is don´t work out so well. At least that´s what I heard.
These are numbers for a medieval setting btw, Eyros is leaned on the roman empire with sophisticated infrastructure. In that time cities were bigger.
My personal preference would be at least a population of 10 million for the whole of Eyros.
Some food for thought: Isf you don´t want to read it all, just jump to the summary.
I use this sites as points of reference
-CIA Worldbook of Facts:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ca.html (demographic, geographic, political atlas)
-Historical population date of the roman empire http://www.tulane.edu/~august/H303/handouts/Population.htm
Eyros
Proposed population of 1,000,000
Land Size : 1,500,000 square miles/ 3,840,000 sq km
Population density: 0,26 people per sq km (I use these as the atlas is only using km)
Of course Eyros could not be compared to modern countries and their populations, but it´s nice to have point of reference to get better grasp of numbers thrown around.
For comparison I took the lands with the largest ratio of landsize to population I know:
Canada
Population: 32,507,874
Land Size: 9,093,507 sq km
Pop. Density: 3,57 ppl/sq km
Australia
Population: 19,913,144
Land Size: 7,617,930 sq km
Pop. Density: 2,59 ppl/sq km
Tried Russia, too, they were around 8,4 ppl/sq km
So Eyros population density is ten times lower than that of Australia
Of course Eyros has several factors that speak for a lower pop density.
-Not a modern nation with all it implies.
-Magic threats
-Sometimes really harsh winters
Comparison to the Roman Empire
As the general mood of Eyros was modeled after the roman empire I now compare Eyros to the Empire. I haven´t found exact size but it was about the size of the U.S.
The Europen Union includes the bulk of the former western roman empire, without the northwestern african parts of course, but including nations outside the former empire, like Finland, Poland, and so on. Eyros is nearly as large as the European Union.
The population of the western empire was around 22 million people, with 1 million guys living in Rome alone.
That´s a possible maximum but Eyros probably has a lower population:
Reasons:
Magical Threats
Races with lower birth rate
Lower urbanization as far as we established here
Harsher climate sometimes
Less fertile area with less rivers (think so)
Eyros is a lilttle smaller than the western roman empire (my estimate)
Eyros probably has a better healthcare with divine magic available.
To take this into account I removed the two provinces with the highest numbers:
Gaul & Rhineland: 5,000,000
Italy : 6,000,000
So that would leave 11,000,000 people.
Eyrdeyn should be smaller than Rome of course, perhaps it´s not even the largest city. The city is built on a volcano with limited space, who erupts sometimes, the empire is smaller, has a lower population density and urbanization seems to be lower than compared to the Roman Empire.
I would say Eyrdeyn could be somewhere around 200,000 to 600,000 people.
SUMMARY and Conclusion:
Eyros with a population of 1,000,000 people has a ten times lower population density than Australia, the roman empire that Eyros is modeled upon had 22 million people in its western parts, an area that has a comparable size to the Dominion. There are several negative influences that would indicate a lower number, so a number of 11,000,000 individuals should be appropriate if we want to keep realistic figures.
We could still use the 1,000,000 individuals figure but without a lot of hand waving such a low number could not support an empire modeled after the roman empire. The population would indicate a more feudal system with lots of smaller lords with a lot autonomy, a weak central authority, a weak infrastructure, low mobility and no standing army as there are simply not enough people to support one. The great houses are probably not able to enforce a central authority and most power would be on the lesser nobles.
The number of soldiers are 20000 if we go with Arkhandus post. Thats 4 legions protecting the empire. For comparison the roman empire needed up to 35 legions plus auxilliary troops to defend its territory.
These are numbers for a medieval setting btw, Eyros is leaned on the roman empire with sophisticated infrastructure. In that time cities were bigger.
My personal preference would be at least a population of 10 million for the whole of Eyros.
Some food for thought: Isf you don´t want to read it all, just jump to the summary.
I use this sites as points of reference
-CIA Worldbook of Facts:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ca.html (demographic, geographic, political atlas)
-Historical population date of the roman empire http://www.tulane.edu/~august/H303/handouts/Population.htm
Eyros
Proposed population of 1,000,000
Land Size : 1,500,000 square miles/ 3,840,000 sq km
Population density: 0,26 people per sq km (I use these as the atlas is only using km)
Of course Eyros could not be compared to modern countries and their populations, but it´s nice to have point of reference to get better grasp of numbers thrown around.
For comparison I took the lands with the largest ratio of landsize to population I know:
Canada
Population: 32,507,874
Land Size: 9,093,507 sq km
Pop. Density: 3,57 ppl/sq km
Australia
Population: 19,913,144
Land Size: 7,617,930 sq km
Pop. Density: 2,59 ppl/sq km
Tried Russia, too, they were around 8,4 ppl/sq km
So Eyros population density is ten times lower than that of Australia
Of course Eyros has several factors that speak for a lower pop density.
-Not a modern nation with all it implies.
-Magic threats
-Sometimes really harsh winters
Comparison to the Roman Empire
As the general mood of Eyros was modeled after the roman empire I now compare Eyros to the Empire. I haven´t found exact size but it was about the size of the U.S.
The Europen Union includes the bulk of the former western roman empire, without the northwestern african parts of course, but including nations outside the former empire, like Finland, Poland, and so on. Eyros is nearly as large as the European Union.
The population of the western empire was around 22 million people, with 1 million guys living in Rome alone.
That´s a possible maximum but Eyros probably has a lower population:
Reasons:
Magical Threats
Races with lower birth rate
Lower urbanization as far as we established here
Harsher climate sometimes
Less fertile area with less rivers (think so)
Eyros is a lilttle smaller than the western roman empire (my estimate)
Eyros probably has a better healthcare with divine magic available.
To take this into account I removed the two provinces with the highest numbers:
Gaul & Rhineland: 5,000,000
Italy : 6,000,000
So that would leave 11,000,000 people.
Eyrdeyn should be smaller than Rome of course, perhaps it´s not even the largest city. The city is built on a volcano with limited space, who erupts sometimes, the empire is smaller, has a lower population density and urbanization seems to be lower than compared to the Roman Empire.
I would say Eyrdeyn could be somewhere around 200,000 to 600,000 people.
SUMMARY and Conclusion:
Eyros with a population of 1,000,000 people has a ten times lower population density than Australia, the roman empire that Eyros is modeled upon had 22 million people in its western parts, an area that has a comparable size to the Dominion. There are several negative influences that would indicate a lower number, so a number of 11,000,000 individuals should be appropriate if we want to keep realistic figures.
We could still use the 1,000,000 individuals figure but without a lot of hand waving such a low number could not support an empire modeled after the roman empire. The population would indicate a more feudal system with lots of smaller lords with a lot autonomy, a weak central authority, a weak infrastructure, low mobility and no standing army as there are simply not enough people to support one. The great houses are probably not able to enforce a central authority and most power would be on the lesser nobles.
The number of soldiers are 20000 if we go with Arkhandus post. Thats 4 legions protecting the empire. For comparison the roman empire needed up to 35 legions plus auxilliary troops to defend its territory.
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Rystil Arden said:
150 all others? If the party kills some evil wizards, they probably kill the whole evil wizard population in one half of the campaign.
I would say we need higher numbers in general if we want wizard powers known. Otherwise an unafiliated wizard like a PC wizard wouldn´t exist or need hell of an explanation why he is adventuring. I mean his services would be in such a high demand, he could live a life in luxury.
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All right, looked over the various criticisms and ideas, and decided to alter things...
Far to the southwest, lies one of the only great kingdoms that Eyros has not succeeded in conquering--Xaleris, the so-called Old Empire. This reclusive nation of humans is infamous for its sorcery, and death-worshiping priests. The Xal, as they are called, are ruled by the so-called Immortal Emperors, who, after 25 years of rule, "ascend" to lichhood, where they serve as "advisors" to their successors. The relationship between the two nations is one of icy peace, as while the Dominion has never had the power to conquer Xaleris, neither have the Xal had the power to take the fight to the half-bloods.
The Xal's state religion is monotheistic, claiming the world to be the creation of a diety they call "The Mother" who encompasses both good and evil, life and death. Xal's worship all aspects of the Mother, but hold her aspects as "Divine Death" and "Divinie Destroyer" highest.
Far to the southwest, lies one of the only great kingdoms that Eyros has not succeeded in conquering--Xaleris, the so-called Old Empire. This reclusive nation of humans is infamous for its sorcery, and death-worshiping priests. The Xal, as they are called, are ruled by the so-called Immortal Emperors, who, after 25 years of rule, "ascend" to lichhood, where they serve as "advisors" to their successors. The relationship between the two nations is one of icy peace, as while the Dominion has never had the power to conquer Xaleris, neither have the Xal had the power to take the fight to the half-bloods.
The Xal's state religion is monotheistic, claiming the world to be the creation of a diety they call "The Mother" who encompasses both good and evil, life and death. Xal's worship all aspects of the Mother, but hold her aspects as "Divine Death" and "Divinie Destroyer" highest.
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