Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
Radiating Gnome said:
My experience exactly.
I turned in a wonderful, creepy short story about a lycanthrope and was pilloried.
Thank God for Story Hour. I love writing pulp for folks who appreciate it!
Wulf
Creative Writing Programs and genre/game writing
My experience exactly.
I turned in a wonderful, creepy short story about a lycanthrope and was pilloried.
Thank God for Story Hour. I love writing pulp for folks who appreciate it!
Wulf
Wicht
Hero
Re: Simplicity
Ok, I think I see what you are saying now
I was pretty tired last night and I think I missed your point.
On the other hand, my in-class experience with teachers tended to be of the sort that praised the obscure symbolic references foregoing any discussion of how well the author got the point across.
As an aside, I appreciate the comments from those writers who have posted here.
Radiating Gnome said:
Ok, I think I see what you are saying now
I was pretty tired last night and I think I missed your point.
On the other hand, my in-class experience with teachers tended to be of the sort that praised the obscure symbolic references foregoing any discussion of how well the author got the point across.
As an aside, I appreciate the comments from those writers who have posted here.
Aeolius
Adventurer
Coming out of college more than a decade ago, I was an English major/Philosophy minor. What I thought I would do with that, I have NO idea. Nowadays, I am part owner of a family business and a graphic artist. Still, I try to keep the creative side of my brain awake with my online campaign.
"Beneath the Pinnacles of Azor'alq" (BPAA), is a 3e D&D World of Greyhawk message-based game (Play-by-Post) set beneath the surface of the Dramidj Ocean. The campaign, which uses the "core rules of 3e, select supplements from 2e, and the heart of 1e", is designed for those interested in participating in a work of coauthored interactive fiction.
Now enjoying its fourth year, the BPAA campaign was created in 1998.
In the campaign, I post a new "Chapter" once a week. During the week, the players respond to events in the Chapter, to NPCs, and to one another. I will add updates as time permits. The next week, I post a new Chapter. While this method of game play requires a degree of patience and the occasional spell-checker, I have found it one of the best options for those with hectic schedules.
With BPAA, I have amalgamated my favorite hobbies; writing, D&D, and marine aquariums.
"Beneath the Pinnacles of Azor'alq" (BPAA), is a 3e D&D World of Greyhawk message-based game (Play-by-Post) set beneath the surface of the Dramidj Ocean. The campaign, which uses the "core rules of 3e, select supplements from 2e, and the heart of 1e", is designed for those interested in participating in a work of coauthored interactive fiction.
Now enjoying its fourth year, the BPAA campaign was created in 1998.
In the campaign, I post a new "Chapter" once a week. During the week, the players respond to events in the Chapter, to NPCs, and to one another. I will add updates as time permits. The next week, I post a new Chapter. While this method of game play requires a degree of patience and the occasional spell-checker, I have found it one of the best options for those with hectic schedules.
With BPAA, I have amalgamated my favorite hobbies; writing, D&D, and marine aquariums.
There really isn't any divide between what is 'literary' and what is 'genre' fiction; literary is itself a genre, no better or worse than any other but having one advantage - a typical stranglehold on academia.
You're going to find pearls of characterization, depth and intelligence in any genre, just as you are going to find shoddy, poor writing in any genre. And while I agree with another poster that there is a lot of shoddy writing that seems acceptable to readers who prefer 'genre' works, there are just as many obscure, navel-gazing works of incredible boredom among the literary stacks that shouldn't be there, either.
Part of it is not wanting to share, I think. Part of it is also a dedicated effort starting in the early teens of squashing interest in the fantastic - but I think the popularity of thrillers (especially on the Best Seller List) is a reaction to that.
A few examples: A Separate Peace - literary, in my opinion, as it deals with the 'ordinary' as it affects the development of the main character. Facinating book. The Watch That Ends The Night - a tooth-pulling exercise of immense boredom that has the sole distinction of being the only book I have ever been assigned to read, but didn't, and not for lack of trying. Part of this may have been mismatching the audience. We were high school students, and I could more easily identify with a teenager puzzling out the intricacies of life moreso than I could with a depressed middle-aged man having trouble dealing with his family relationships.
But what about these best sellers? I would consider Lord of the Flies to have more in common with social sci-fi than I would the 'literary', and I would classify Memoirs of a Geisha as historical, but it was heavily carried mainstream. I find the separation of these things very artificial and backwards, leaving thought-provoking science fiction in the closets while 'literary' works are held high regardless of merit. And the institutions that continually reinforce these whacky preconceptions are doing themselves and writing in general a disservice, IMO. Good writing is good writing, regardless of genre. Encouraging one at the expense of all others is like focusing solely on chemistry and disregarding astronomy, physics and mathematics as 'lesser' sciences.
You're going to find pearls of characterization, depth and intelligence in any genre, just as you are going to find shoddy, poor writing in any genre. And while I agree with another poster that there is a lot of shoddy writing that seems acceptable to readers who prefer 'genre' works, there are just as many obscure, navel-gazing works of incredible boredom among the literary stacks that shouldn't be there, either.
Part of it is not wanting to share, I think. Part of it is also a dedicated effort starting in the early teens of squashing interest in the fantastic - but I think the popularity of thrillers (especially on the Best Seller List) is a reaction to that.
A few examples: A Separate Peace - literary, in my opinion, as it deals with the 'ordinary' as it affects the development of the main character. Facinating book. The Watch That Ends The Night - a tooth-pulling exercise of immense boredom that has the sole distinction of being the only book I have ever been assigned to read, but didn't, and not for lack of trying. Part of this may have been mismatching the audience. We were high school students, and I could more easily identify with a teenager puzzling out the intricacies of life moreso than I could with a depressed middle-aged man having trouble dealing with his family relationships.
But what about these best sellers? I would consider Lord of the Flies to have more in common with social sci-fi than I would the 'literary', and I would classify Memoirs of a Geisha as historical, but it was heavily carried mainstream. I find the separation of these things very artificial and backwards, leaving thought-provoking science fiction in the closets while 'literary' works are held high regardless of merit. And the institutions that continually reinforce these whacky preconceptions are doing themselves and writing in general a disservice, IMO. Good writing is good writing, regardless of genre. Encouraging one at the expense of all others is like focusing solely on chemistry and disregarding astronomy, physics and mathematics as 'lesser' sciences.
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What do people think of the Clarion, West Clarion and SF Odyssey genre workshops?
I'll edit this later to put in their urls but basicly the three workshops offer a 6-week course where you learn to write from other authors. Some commonalities among the workshops.
1. You have to submit story samples to prove you are of a certain caliber before you are invited to join. Samples are due either April 1 or April 15. The samples vary for each school.
2. Intensive training, this is not a correspondence school. You have to take the classes on campus and you bascily talk, listen and do writing every day and night for those 6-weeks.
3. The cost of the workshops, dorm rooms included, is more than $1,500, with one work study position available.
4. The class allows for networking (which is great for those of us who can't make WorldCon).
5. There is a featured writer every year that they make a big to do about. Harlen Ellsion has been the featured writer all three workshops.
6. Rumors abound that some editors love to get work from the graduates and other immediately roundfile the submissions. Its like you've gone from being lost in the crowd to declaring your alliegence in a politcal race.
I am curious what people have heard or experienced at these schools.
I got accepted to one, but my job and checkbook prevented me from going this year.
I'll edit this later to put in their urls but basicly the three workshops offer a 6-week course where you learn to write from other authors. Some commonalities among the workshops.
1. You have to submit story samples to prove you are of a certain caliber before you are invited to join. Samples are due either April 1 or April 15. The samples vary for each school.
2. Intensive training, this is not a correspondence school. You have to take the classes on campus and you bascily talk, listen and do writing every day and night for those 6-weeks.
3. The cost of the workshops, dorm rooms included, is more than $1,500, with one work study position available.
4. The class allows for networking (which is great for those of us who can't make WorldCon).
5. There is a featured writer every year that they make a big to do about. Harlen Ellsion has been the featured writer all three workshops.
6. Rumors abound that some editors love to get work from the graduates and other immediately roundfile the submissions. Its like you've gone from being lost in the crowd to declaring your alliegence in a politcal race.
I am curious what people have heard or experienced at these schools.
I got accepted to one, but my job and checkbook prevented me from going this year.
Desdichado
Hero
Yeah, but you can't break the rules of your genre unless you thoroughly understand them. What was both encouraging and disheartening to me as a wannabe writer is that writing to be published is much more of a craft than an art. You can't really transcend the craft of writing until you have it completely nailed down. And that's where I think most college writing classes and the like fail: they do not want to treat writing like a craft, the teachers are often poor practitioners of the craft, and don't even have any regard for it.
Any professional novelist will tell you otherwise, though.
Radiating Gnome
Adventurer
Re: Re: Creative Writing Programs and genre/game writing
For me it was a switch to what someone else has already named, very aptly, bad sex and bad relatives. And from there I found my own way to work within literary fiction -- the types of characters I wanted to write about, etc. My thesis collection is all about characters that would be considered losers by most people -- my stories just try to explore their lives, their little victories and losses, etc. But it's about the losers.
But I don't think that this is the wrong approach to take, either -- the problem with trying to teach the craft of writing to people who are trying to write genre fiction is that student genre writers tend to not see past the plot to the craft of the writing.
A musician who needs to work on a particular point of tecnhique would practice with an etude tha focused on that one skill. A soccer player who needs to work on his headers would just practice headers. But students of writing who need to work on craft resist the notion that they should work in forms that tend to strip away everything but the craft.
It is true that the vast majority of ANYTHING out there that is being published is crap. Even the stuff that tends to be more "literary" in style. And that's true of science fiction and fantasy. And there are certainly science fiction and fantasy writers whose work has true literary merit. But because those books are more challenging for readers than most of the pablum that's out there, the literary-quality writers are not as widely read. They aren't even as widely published, because the formulaic stuff sells better. But they're out there.
-rg
Darklance said:
For me it was a switch to what someone else has already named, very aptly, bad sex and bad relatives. And from there I found my own way to work within literary fiction -- the types of characters I wanted to write about, etc. My thesis collection is all about characters that would be considered losers by most people -- my stories just try to explore their lives, their little victories and losses, etc. But it's about the losers.
But I don't think that this is the wrong approach to take, either -- the problem with trying to teach the craft of writing to people who are trying to write genre fiction is that student genre writers tend to not see past the plot to the craft of the writing.
A musician who needs to work on a particular point of tecnhique would practice with an etude tha focused on that one skill. A soccer player who needs to work on his headers would just practice headers. But students of writing who need to work on craft resist the notion that they should work in forms that tend to strip away everything but the craft.
It is true that the vast majority of ANYTHING out there that is being published is crap. Even the stuff that tends to be more "literary" in style. And that's true of science fiction and fantasy. And there are certainly science fiction and fantasy writers whose work has true literary merit. But because those books are more challenging for readers than most of the pablum that's out there, the literary-quality writers are not as widely read. They aren't even as widely published, because the formulaic stuff sells better. But they're out there.
-rg
Heap Thaumaturgist
First Post
Well, hours-wise I'm a BA, I just didn't take the option to graduate. I'm picking up a business minor. My major, however, is English: Rhetoric and Communication.
I don't know why I feel the need to explain myself. I suppose some deep-seated feelings of inferiority because I don't yet have that piece of paper in my hand. It's for a good reason though; the aquisition of funding for masters.
At any rate, I started English four years ago with some high minded ideals of getting a degree in creative writing and that degree being in some small way useful in my drive to be "A Writer". After two years I realized a few things ... 1: I didn't like "Literature". That is, the classes on classic and new-classic High Literary literature. 2: I didn't like Creative Writing much, either.
Somewhere in there I actually started reading what authors were saying about the -industry- I wanted to be in. "Industry?" says I. Here's something they're not telling us in Creative Writing I or II. I also notice that these successful authors say various negative things about Creative Writing classes they've had, and lo, many of them have degrees in ... Law? What gives?
I've gone to a junior college and a state university. The junior college was free. The "Creative Writing" classes at University were those type we've discussed here that out and out refuse to work with "Genre Fiction". "I don't want to read Genre Fiction. I'm not saying that Genre Fiction is bad, I just want us all to stay on the same page." ... I will, at least, give my second instructor due regard ... she's not a professor, doesn't have a doctorate, but she's well published in her genre (Literary) so they brought her in to teach Creative Writing classes. And since she's not a genre writer, she teaches non-genre writing. It is, after all, what she knows. And she's good.
The problem has many sides. One of the first sides, and one people will yell at me about, but I'm brutal, is this ... the vast majority of people who want to write have no talent for it. Invariably these people read Genre Fiction. Why? Genre Fiction sells. Genre Fiction is fun to read, it entertains, so people who want to be entertained read Genre Fiction. Of the genres, Fantasy and Science Fiction tend to attract people of an intellectual and imaginative strain. These people get to college and invariably sign up for Creative Writing, where they will hone their skills and get feedback on their stories and become the next Robert Jordan.
Unfortunately through a combination of laziness, ego, and excited imagination 99% of these people just aren't any good. They don't have the patience, time, or grasp of linguistic nuance to BE any good; and they all want to write Genre Fiction. So, by eliminating Genre Fiction from the roster, a surprising number of these people drop out entirely, muttering: "They dont' understand the real worth of Fantasy." The rest, at least, are willing to work outside of their genre. Though, again, a large number of those remaining are the artsy crowd who've read a little "Literature" and realize they too have pain. Pain which must be shared, and shared with the eloquent exploration of their artsy little character. (Who usually sounds alot like the author, physical blemishes done away with and hair color changed.)
In the end, of a class of twenty you'll get 8 that stay and 2 that actually have any talent. Talent is a hard term to define, but most of us know it when we hear it. Unfortunately, it just isn't socially acceptable to say, after sitting through a seven page reading of low-level Furry smut, "You're really not very good. Not to be mean, but that was physically painful to sit through."
Now, to go back in time, I had a few Creative Writing courses at the junior college, as well. Four, I think. Two of them I took while still in high school. All under the same professor, a kind old blind man named Dr. Smith. He's not really that old, I suppose, but old enough when you're in high school and his hair is turning white. He isn't, I suppose, all that blind, either. He can see general shapes, and usually enough to know if somebody is in the room, but only if they're standing up and away from any tall objects. For this discussion, however, he shall be old and blind.
At any rate, Dr. Smith levied no such limit on Creative Writing. Poetry, action fantasy, vampire smut ... he just said: "Bring something to the next class" ... and he would listen to it. We had to read our something out loud (him being unable to read), and he would sit on top of the high-school style teacher's desk at the front of the room with a black marker and a legal pad ... every once in a while he would stare distantly at the pad and make a very large chinese character, then turn the page. And, when you were through, he somehow could turn those three or four chinese characters into a half hour of deep, directive questioning about specific parts of your "something", peering intently at the page, an inch from his nose, moving the pad as he traced the outline to see which one he wrote. "Let's go back to where Kareon was facing the large demon and said ..."
As a small junior college, we'd only start with 8 people ... and we'd never lose a single one. Horrible poetry, overdrawn smut, bad action fantasy ... it all got equal regard and equal questioning ... I'm still not sure how he did it, but the ones that wanted to learn got to learn, and the ones that just wanted very badly for someone to listen to their attempts toward creativity didn't learn a thing, but went home happy. I wouldn't have that kind of patience, at all. I can't honestly remember WHERE or HOW I learned anything in that class, but I did. It stimulated me to go out and learn about the industry I wanted to work in. It stimulated me to go out and learn about literary theory and literary psychology. A few hints here and there, a crumb or two, a "you might like to read _______" or a "what did your favorite author really do when he did _____".
I'm not a published author, yet, so I can't make any claims toward a position of higher knowledge. WotC expressed interest in an article I wrote for them, once, but I had the bad luck to hit the turn-over to 3E and they asked me to wait a few weeks for the PHB to hit the shelves and refit it from 2nd Ed and I never did. Got caught up with classes and relationship drama. That and most every county and state-wide award for poetry and short fiction. I've spent most of my time in what I call "My apprenticeship" ... I discovered an aspect of English studies that caught my attention and allowed me a possibility of work after graduation, and I follow that and apply every nuance of it to my own writing.
Like most authors, I don't think "classes" at a university or college will "make" anybody a better writer. No actual aspect of Dr. Smith's classes gave me any skills ... as a person, his patience and willingness to point me toward things I could take and teach _myself_ made me a better writer. The university classes I took were totally useless. After the self-training I'd had from junior college, I was a better writer than anybody in the classes, so I could honestly scribble out a two page short in an hour that the instructor would love and go on about and then sit there in abject boredom while she tried to blacksmith the rest of the class into her ideal of what writers should be. I short-shrifted myself because she never stimulated me to LEARN anything I didn't already know about writing as a craft and an art, and I had alot of homework to do in other classes. So if I could get away with a literary-literature short about a couple guys discussing an ex girlfriend and drinking coffee in a cafe in an hour, that's what I was going to do. The friends I made in that class would all moan and complain that she trashed their ideas and smothered their creativity, and all I could do was point out that at every turn she was right. And, honestly, she was ... this bit of overdrawn exposition, this cardboard character, this or that bad adjective, and seven pages in passive voice ... none of it was good. The thing was, those people were never going to BE good. They just wanted somebody to listen to their stories and nod and make gentle suggestions that never sounded like actual suggestions.
Being a writer is either something you're born with, or an incurable disease, I haven't decided which. Writing is a craft, but a craft based on this ineffable thing we call "Talent" ... talent can be learned, but is almost impossible to teach, and I don't think we realize when we "learn" talent.
... I think I might have gotten derailed from the topic train somewhere in there.
--HT
I don't know why I feel the need to explain myself. I suppose some deep-seated feelings of inferiority because I don't yet have that piece of paper in my hand. It's for a good reason though; the aquisition of funding for masters.
At any rate, I started English four years ago with some high minded ideals of getting a degree in creative writing and that degree being in some small way useful in my drive to be "A Writer". After two years I realized a few things ... 1: I didn't like "Literature". That is, the classes on classic and new-classic High Literary literature. 2: I didn't like Creative Writing much, either.
Somewhere in there I actually started reading what authors were saying about the -industry- I wanted to be in. "Industry?" says I. Here's something they're not telling us in Creative Writing I or II. I also notice that these successful authors say various negative things about Creative Writing classes they've had, and lo, many of them have degrees in ... Law? What gives?
I've gone to a junior college and a state university. The junior college was free. The "Creative Writing" classes at University were those type we've discussed here that out and out refuse to work with "Genre Fiction". "I don't want to read Genre Fiction. I'm not saying that Genre Fiction is bad, I just want us all to stay on the same page." ... I will, at least, give my second instructor due regard ... she's not a professor, doesn't have a doctorate, but she's well published in her genre (Literary) so they brought her in to teach Creative Writing classes. And since she's not a genre writer, she teaches non-genre writing. It is, after all, what she knows. And she's good.
The problem has many sides. One of the first sides, and one people will yell at me about, but I'm brutal, is this ... the vast majority of people who want to write have no talent for it. Invariably these people read Genre Fiction. Why? Genre Fiction sells. Genre Fiction is fun to read, it entertains, so people who want to be entertained read Genre Fiction. Of the genres, Fantasy and Science Fiction tend to attract people of an intellectual and imaginative strain. These people get to college and invariably sign up for Creative Writing, where they will hone their skills and get feedback on their stories and become the next Robert Jordan.
Unfortunately through a combination of laziness, ego, and excited imagination 99% of these people just aren't any good. They don't have the patience, time, or grasp of linguistic nuance to BE any good; and they all want to write Genre Fiction. So, by eliminating Genre Fiction from the roster, a surprising number of these people drop out entirely, muttering: "They dont' understand the real worth of Fantasy." The rest, at least, are willing to work outside of their genre. Though, again, a large number of those remaining are the artsy crowd who've read a little "Literature" and realize they too have pain. Pain which must be shared, and shared with the eloquent exploration of their artsy little character. (Who usually sounds alot like the author, physical blemishes done away with and hair color changed.)
In the end, of a class of twenty you'll get 8 that stay and 2 that actually have any talent. Talent is a hard term to define, but most of us know it when we hear it. Unfortunately, it just isn't socially acceptable to say, after sitting through a seven page reading of low-level Furry smut, "You're really not very good. Not to be mean, but that was physically painful to sit through."
Now, to go back in time, I had a few Creative Writing courses at the junior college, as well. Four, I think. Two of them I took while still in high school. All under the same professor, a kind old blind man named Dr. Smith. He's not really that old, I suppose, but old enough when you're in high school and his hair is turning white. He isn't, I suppose, all that blind, either. He can see general shapes, and usually enough to know if somebody is in the room, but only if they're standing up and away from any tall objects. For this discussion, however, he shall be old and blind.
At any rate, Dr. Smith levied no such limit on Creative Writing. Poetry, action fantasy, vampire smut ... he just said: "Bring something to the next class" ... and he would listen to it. We had to read our something out loud (him being unable to read), and he would sit on top of the high-school style teacher's desk at the front of the room with a black marker and a legal pad ... every once in a while he would stare distantly at the pad and make a very large chinese character, then turn the page. And, when you were through, he somehow could turn those three or four chinese characters into a half hour of deep, directive questioning about specific parts of your "something", peering intently at the page, an inch from his nose, moving the pad as he traced the outline to see which one he wrote. "Let's go back to where Kareon was facing the large demon and said ..."
As a small junior college, we'd only start with 8 people ... and we'd never lose a single one. Horrible poetry, overdrawn smut, bad action fantasy ... it all got equal regard and equal questioning ... I'm still not sure how he did it, but the ones that wanted to learn got to learn, and the ones that just wanted very badly for someone to listen to their attempts toward creativity didn't learn a thing, but went home happy. I wouldn't have that kind of patience, at all. I can't honestly remember WHERE or HOW I learned anything in that class, but I did. It stimulated me to go out and learn about the industry I wanted to work in. It stimulated me to go out and learn about literary theory and literary psychology. A few hints here and there, a crumb or two, a "you might like to read _______" or a "what did your favorite author really do when he did _____".
I'm not a published author, yet, so I can't make any claims toward a position of higher knowledge. WotC expressed interest in an article I wrote for them, once, but I had the bad luck to hit the turn-over to 3E and they asked me to wait a few weeks for the PHB to hit the shelves and refit it from 2nd Ed and I never did. Got caught up with classes and relationship drama. That and most every county and state-wide award for poetry and short fiction. I've spent most of my time in what I call "My apprenticeship" ... I discovered an aspect of English studies that caught my attention and allowed me a possibility of work after graduation, and I follow that and apply every nuance of it to my own writing.
Like most authors, I don't think "classes" at a university or college will "make" anybody a better writer. No actual aspect of Dr. Smith's classes gave me any skills ... as a person, his patience and willingness to point me toward things I could take and teach _myself_ made me a better writer. The university classes I took were totally useless. After the self-training I'd had from junior college, I was a better writer than anybody in the classes, so I could honestly scribble out a two page short in an hour that the instructor would love and go on about and then sit there in abject boredom while she tried to blacksmith the rest of the class into her ideal of what writers should be. I short-shrifted myself because she never stimulated me to LEARN anything I didn't already know about writing as a craft and an art, and I had alot of homework to do in other classes. So if I could get away with a literary-literature short about a couple guys discussing an ex girlfriend and drinking coffee in a cafe in an hour, that's what I was going to do. The friends I made in that class would all moan and complain that she trashed their ideas and smothered their creativity, and all I could do was point out that at every turn she was right. And, honestly, she was ... this bit of overdrawn exposition, this cardboard character, this or that bad adjective, and seven pages in passive voice ... none of it was good. The thing was, those people were never going to BE good. They just wanted somebody to listen to their stories and nod and make gentle suggestions that never sounded like actual suggestions.
Being a writer is either something you're born with, or an incurable disease, I haven't decided which. Writing is a craft, but a craft based on this ineffable thing we call "Talent" ... talent can be learned, but is almost impossible to teach, and I don't think we realize when we "learn" talent.
... I think I might have gotten derailed from the topic train somewhere in there.
--HT
Voneth said:
I went to Clarion West in 2000 -- it was fantastic. Life-changing experience. Huge. Absolutely rockin'. If you want to write, it's the best thing that can ever happen to you. Well, okay, short of publication.
That sounds a whole lot more literary than it actually is. Here's how it went on an average day. Call it "Day X".
You walk from the dorm to the class, usually leaving at 8:30 if you want to stop and grab coffee. You get there at about five 'til nine, come in and sit down. The chairs are arranged in a bigass circle -- it's the old chair-with-writing-attachment model that is so hugely uncomfortable. In the center of the circle are a whole bunch of small stuffed animals, rubber sea monsters, green plastic army men, and whatever else has been donated.
At nine, you start -- whoever is teaching that week (individual instructors or a pair, different perseon each week, one week has an editor) gets everyone seated, and, since this is day X, you critique the stories that were submitted the day before, on day X-1. Everyone critiques each story, teacher last, going around the circle -- part of going to Clarion is learning how to give a good critique, too, because you get better at critiquing your own stuff.
There are usually around 3-4 stories per day. Sometimes between stories, the teachers will give a short lesson, if they think there's something everyone is lacking -- soul, well-defined characters, setting, whatever. I'd classify this as the exception rather than the rule, though. It takes about 45 minutes for each critique, meaning that if you have 4 stories, you're going from 9 to noon -- and they don't like going past noon. At the end of the class, you get copies of all the stories turned in today that need to be read and critiqued for tomorrow.
After class, everyone grabs lunch -- often together, sometimes separately (If you've just had your baby torn apart, you might need some alone time -- or you might THINK you need alone time while everyone else thinks you need to be comforted and told how totally wrong those guys who hated your story were...) After that, the rest of the day, from noon on, is yours. Some people read in the afternoon and write in the evening. Other people write first, then read. Some people screw around and have waterfights and watch TV and then panic and scramble some time around 10:30.
Repeat every weekday for six weeks.
So it's much less like a CLASS and much more like a writer's retreat. There's much more writing and critiquing than there is listening to a writer tell you about narrative flow.
The year I went, everyone who applied got a partial scholarship, and multiple people got full scholarships.
I was working at a startup and preparing for my wedding, which my fiancee and I were paying for ourselves. What she said to me when I had decided we couldn't make it work financially that year was, "Look, there's never going to be a time when you have six weeks and $2000 that you don't need. So do it, and we'll MAKE it work."
As someone who worked as an assistant fiction editor for one summer, I can tell you that that's largely an unfounded rumor. When my editor showed me the ropes, she said, "There are two things that should get a story straight to my pile -- if they have prior publications from somewhere you've heard of, or if they're an SFWA member."
Most editors like Clarion stories because they at least get into the upper echelon of garbage. The "complaint" I've heard about Clarion stories is, "It took me until the end of the story to reject it," as opposed to the stories the editor can confidently reject after going no further than page two.
If an editor specifically says, "Bah, I HATE stories from Clarion grads," they have some political stuff going on that has very little to do with the writing. Same if they only buy stories from Clarion grads.
ANYWAY -- much more than you wanted to know.
The best thing for Clarion for me was this:
Have you ever said to yourself, man, I KNOW I could crank out the prose if I didn't have that job to do all day? If I didn't have my wife/kids bugging me when I got home? If I didn't have all these other distractions? You go to Clarion, and suddenly those distractions are gone for six weeks, and you get to find out if you were just making up excuses, or if you really CAN crank it out -- 'cause one story per week, every week, is a lot of writing. I could do it. I loved it. It rocked. Other people hit the wall and realized that it hadn't been work/school/spouse holding them back -- even with those distractions gone, they couldn't put the words on the paper.
So hey, that's me. Like I said -- there's never gonna be six weeks and $2000 that you don't really need. So if you want to do it, do it, and it'll find a way to happen.
-Tacky
PS: Old One: How many Takyrises are there out there? And how many would shorten their name to Tacky? S'me. But thanks for recommending my book back to me.
wbmcdermott
First Post
Joshua Dyal said:
You are right. Writing is a craft, and my experiences as an editor probably taught me more about the craft of writing than any classes I ever took. It's about varying your sentence construction (short for action, long for description), cliffhangers at the end of chapters or scenes (to keep the reader's interest), avoiding the same words or phrases over and over again, and rewriting to get every word perfect.
But, as these things become more natural for you, the art takes over again. That's when you can start to find your voice. It's not always easy and for crafters, I think, it's harder. Some writers are "Swoopers" (that's what my editor called them). They swoop in and let the words flow out onto the page, not worrying about form, sentence structure, or anything but the words. Others are "plodders" who agonize over every word, rewriting sentences and sections over and over again with every pass through the story.
As an editor, I can tell you that I prefer the plodders because that means less work for me. But, they do tend to blow deadlines. But you often get more inspired work from the swoopers because they let it all hang out when they write. It just takes a lot more work for the editor, sometimes, to take that stream of consciousness and assemble it into something the reader can follow.
I think the swoopers are the artists (generally) and the plodders are the crafters. At least that's how I am (plodding crafter). Still, if you want to swoop, you really need to know the craft of writing. It has to be second nature. Otherwise, you just get a jumbled mess of words and your editor will scream.
Sabre
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