Creative Writing Programs and genre/game writing

[Clint]

I'm starting the second major writing phase of my life, have no degree in writing, and have only been seriously writing and attending my writing group for six months, so I have little to add that hasn't been said. Thank you all for the freely given advice and conversation on the craft of writing. It reminds me to open up my word processor again and get off these boards.

 

[Heap Thaumaturgist]

Re: Toberane

As I said, talent is something very hard to define. Part of it is heart, part of it is the ability to learn.

I don't think I'm being in any way unfair to instructors in college writing programs. I'm the first to admit that they try very hard. And the four people I've known who teach creative writing are all hard working professionals as well as very talented people in their respective fields.

I suppose I wrote a little too long and muddled my point which is this:

Most creative writing instructors and profs don't work in genre fiction, so they are readily willing to admit it isn't a field they can offer much exact help in.

AND most people who enter these programs who are not in a personal and emotional position to learn work in genre fiction. Those who ARE and work in genre fiction are willing to work outside of their usual field if they think they'll learn something.

My problem with these programs is the repetitive nature of them. If you can write passable literary fiction you get praise, surely, but after that if your goal is saleable genre fiction, you're honestly wasting your time. Most creative writing programs don't teach anything about submissions guidelines, possible markets, agents, etc etc. "Genre Fiction" is the stuff swept under the rug, "wasted time".

As for being born a writer ... think of it this way, people who are born writers will still be writers when they die, unpublished, broken and dispirited. After working for 20 years at the same office if you ask a born writer what he does at a party he says: "I'm a writer."

--HT

 

[StalkingBlue]

count me in if you will

by the time you get set up I'll hopefully have reliable internet access again
(grrrrr)

 

[toberane]

Re: Re: Toberane

My problem with these programs is the repetitive nature of them. If you can write passable literary fiction you get praise, surely, but after that if your goal is saleable genre fiction, you're honestly wasting your time. Most creative writing programs don't teach anything about submissions guidelines, possible markets, agents, etc etc. "Genre Fiction" is the stuff swept under the rug, "wasted time".

Here I agree with you wholeheartedly. I believe every college student, particularly the ones dealing with the arts, should be required to pass a class in the business basics of their trade. Most actors, writers, and artists will have to promote themselves the same way a business promotes itself, and to do that effectively, they need to have an understanding of the business end of their trade, as well as some training in money management. If you intend to be a writer, actor, or artisi for a living, you had better know how to manage your money, or you will be royally screwed at tax time.

Luckily, there are a number of How-To books on writing and getting published that cover all this material in depth. Unfortunately, the ones who are likely to have problems with the business end of their art are also the ones who are least likely to go out and buy a book that tells them how to do it.

As for being born a writer ... think of it this way, people who are born writers will still be writers when they die, unpublished, broken and dispirited. After working for 20 years at the same office if you ask a born writer what he does at a party he says: "I'm a writer."

--HT

Just like if you wee to ask most of the waiters and waitresses in New York City what their occupation was, they'd say, "Actor."

 

[Radiating Gnome]

Talent?

I've known a lot of aspiring writers in my time, and been in a lot of different workshops and worked with a lot of instructors. And there's one thing that seems to be the hallmark of the people who are going to make it.

It isn't something intangible like Talent.

It isn't degrees or workshops or craft, although those help hone skills. It takes longer to learn everything on your own (although it can be done).

It's drive. It's the people who get up in the morning and NEED to write who have a real chance at being successful -- not because of talent, but because after they write and fail today, and they get up again tomorrow and write again, and again, and again, and again, and they get better incrementally every day. And some day, if they don't die first, they'll get there.

Now, will the get published? Or will they die like Emily Dickenson with with a truck full of work in the attic? That's a different question.

 

[toberane]

Re: Talent?

It's drive. It's the people who get up in the morning and NEED to write who have a real chance at being successful -- not because of talent, but because after they write and fail today, and they get up again tomorrow and write again, and again, and again, and again, and they get better incrementally every day. And some day, if they don't die first, they'll get there.

This is what I meant by desire. I have always been able to write stories that make people go "Oooh". It comes fairly easily to me. That's what I mean by "talent."

However, will I be a successful writer? Not until I get off my butt and do it. The most mediocre writer who writes ten pages a day year after year after year and is constantly submitting his work will make a lot more money than I am likely to make with my writing right now, because I don't write enough. I can make all kinds of excuses and say I've got a wife, kids, job, bills, etc., but I can find the time to write if I want to. But someone who has the drive and desire to be a writer can quickly surpass me in skill and volume of work.

This is part of the reason that I like the idea of the writer's group. If I have more motivation than my own inner voice saying, "You need to turn off the tv and write, you idiot!" then I will be more likely to do it. And once I get in the habit of writing every day, I'm well on my way to the Pulitzer Prize! As I said before, I would very much like to be included in this writer's group you are putting together.

 

[Ruined]

Greetings all,

This is an excellent thread, and the writing group is something I'm interested in. I struggle to keep myself on track with writing, and critique/support from this community would be welcome.

I will also make the offer, even though RadiatingGnome did it first, of hosting any kind of message board need you have. I have phpboard set up on my site, and it has worked wonders so far. If we need it I can set someone up as Moderator and keep the forum password protected.

For those wanting to see the message board, go to:
Ruined.Net

Regardless, I'm very interested in this effort.

 

[takyris]

I will add to this interesting discussion, somewhat snarkily, that a lot of people are in love with the IDEA of being a writer, as opposed to, you know, the actual writing.

I crank out the prose. I send stuff out. Ninety-nine times out of 100, it's a rejection. So far, I have three short story acceptances in magazines that you could maybe find in Borders -- which makes me a borderline professional. I am in no danger of quitting my day job.

The average advance for a first novel is about $5000 -- many people get less, a few of the Stephen Kings of the world get much much more. $5000 ain't a quit-your-job amount by any stretch of the imagination.

By about the fifth novel, assuming decent sales, you're at something like $20,000 per book, MAYBE. I live in California, in the Bay Area -- ain't nobody quitting their day job to go live on $20,000 a year -- and even if it's all you do, it's uncommon to write, critique, rewrite, revise, rerewrite, edit, rererewrite, proofread, polish, and sell more than one book per year. Most of the people you see on the shelves at Borders have a day job, teaching writing or English or whatever.

So the line between professional an amateur is at once both thinner and thicker than one might believe. The pros don't necessarily do nothing but write, unless they're very fortunate and have bestsellers and make well above the average for their work.

What the pros DO do is write something, take it through a critique process, rewrite, edit, and send it out. They don't:

* Complain romantically about how "I have too many ideas, and as soon as I start one thing, some other REALLY COOL idea comes up, and I have to drop what I'm working on to start that."

* Tell everyone about their story idea and never actually do it.

* Write a rough draft, post it on the Internet, and declare themselves a success.

* Write it and then hide it in their drawer for all eternity without ever revising it.

* Write it, revise it, and then not send it out because it would hurt their feelings too much if it got rejected.

* Say that they'll write once they retire (To which my standard response is that I was considering becoming a doctor once I retired from writing because, you know, I like medicine, I'm sure I'd be pretty good at it, I like the idea of making people feel better...)

ANYWAY.

In my experience, the ones who talk about intangibles like talent are the ones who don't actually write enough -- but that's just my experience. If you sit with your butt in the seat and don't get up until you've finished scene x, you're gonna be a better writer than when you started. Writing, critiquing, revising. Can't make you great, but can always make you better.

-Tacky

 

[Radiating Gnome]

I will also make the offer, even though RadiatingGnome did it first, of hosting any kind of message board need you have. I have phpboard set up on my site, and it has worked wonders so far. If we need it I can set someone up as Moderator and keep the forum password protected.

For those wanting to see the message board, go to:
Ruined.Net

Regardless, I'm very interested in this effort.

I'd say, since I don't have message boards set up and would be figuring it out as I go, that I like the idea of you hosting the site. We're still at the noodling around with the idea stage, but it starts to sound like it might come together.

I have seen the critters.org site before, and that's also an interesting option. No sense reinventing the wheel, after all.

Still exploring, as the Day job permits -

RG

 

[Old One]

Good Points, Tacky...

I have to agree, even though I only have a couple of old RPG submissions to my credit. Writing is hard work! I have the dream of being a writer, manage to pound out 4,000-6,000 words in a typical week between several outlets, but have little time or energy left for the very important revision and rewrite steps.

I just launched my WOTC 1-pager off yesterday and that went through at least 10 major revisions and rewrites...it was exhausting!

I would, however, be interested in joining a genre writing group IF the group is oriented towards critique with an eye towards publication.

~ Old One