Critical Hits with Power Strike and Corroboration

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

I understand that damage from sneak attack, hunter's quarry, warlock's curse, are maxed when one scores a critical hit, and it's my understanding so is extra damage from things like power strike, assassin's strike etc. And although I do have official reference that damage from sneak attack, hunter's quarry, warlock's curse are maxed on a crit, I nevertheless cannot find anything official that states that things like, power strike and assassin strike are maxed as well. The reason this is an issue for me is because, my DM does not realize that sneak attack, hunter's quarry, and warlock's curse, are maximized on a critical hit, and I can direct him to an official source showing that those things are maxed on a crit, but, I don't have anything official showing that power strike is maxed on a crit, and I know my DM is going to say that power strike is different than those things, because power strike is a power. That may not be a good argument, but, I know that's going to be my DM's argument. Thus, does anyone have an official reference showing that power strike is maxed on a critical hit? (or if I get enough replies to this in the affirmative, then I can just send him the link to this thread).
If not, what would be the best argument I can make from the RAW that power strike is maxed on a critical hit? (beyond what is stated in the RC)
Also, is the half orc racial power Furious Assault maximized on a critical hit, given that it is a seperate action (a free action)? If it is, how could I show that it matters not that furious assault is a free action?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

RAW is that ANY damage that would normally be done by the attack if it were NOT a critical is maximized. Since things like SA damage etc are part of the attack (they are riders and aren't powers at all) they max.

Things like Power Strike and Furious Assault aren't attacks. They are separate powers with triggers which have damage effects. They definitionally can never be crits. Because they ARE separate by strict RAW they don't participate in a crit even though they're triggered by an attack that is a crit. I don't know if this is something the designers never thought about or what, but I'm pretty sure you won't find anything more specific than the general rules on this one. I'm pretty sure though that the PHB1 FAQ does point out the maxing of striker bonus damage dice.

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

Well, you are definitely one of my "go-to" people when it comes to rule questions, and I'm going to go by what you stated. And it does make sense. And I'm glad, because I didn't want to get in a debate with my DM. But through the extensive on-line research that I have done concerning the issue, the consensus was that power strike is maxed on a crit. Just sayin.

 

[Ferghis]

I can't say that I agree with AbdulAlhazred, even though he knows this game very well indeed. I don't see what difference it would make that it's a separate power or a class feature. Power strike might even be both. And warlock's curse is a power, but those dice get maximized.

Since we're talking about crits, I have a question about high crit weapons. Is that extra [W] of damage that is not normally present maximized because it's a specific case trumping the general rule, or is just rolled like enchantment crit dice are?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, you are definitely one of my "go-to" people when it comes to rule questions, and I'm going to go by what you stated. And it does make sense. And I'm glad, because I didn't want to get in a debate with my DM. But through the extensive on-line research that I have done concerning the issue, the consensus was that power strike is maxed on a crit. Just sayin.

Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people do it that way. Nothing wrong with that. Rules are nice and all but no need to be overly devoted to them (and heck, for all I know buried somewhere is some CS response saying it works this way, they do that kind of thing sometimes, lol).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I can't say that I agree with AbdulAlhazred, even though he knows this game very well indeed. I don't see what difference it would make that it's a separate power or a class feature. Power strike might even be both. And warlock's curse is a power, but those dice get maximized.

Since we're talking about crits, I have a question about high crit weapons. Is that extra [W] of damage that is not normally present maximized because it's a specific case trumping the general rule, or is just rolled like enchantment crit dice are?

Eh, originally at least warlock's cursing was entirely written up as a class feature. I know they do sometimes rewrite stuff in the compendium in power format. Usually it doesn't matter, but there are times when it can create these little questions. Since Power Strike has always been written up as a power the basic interpretation of RAW would be different for it.

Striker bonus dice in general have some weird things going on with them. Read the ranger's rules for real questions! As far as crits go it is clear, HQ causes the attack to do the extra damaqe, but then you have that weird rule about being able to decide at the end of the ROUND which of your attacks got the bonus damage, figure that one out! This is especially interesting when you consider the "when you make the attack" wording. The whole thing is really quite ambiguous in a lot of ways, but everyone just treats it as "extra damage was done", which works fine.

As for High Crit... It is damage that is only done on a crit, so not maximized. In any case if it WAS maximized it would just be a fixed damage bonus, as it would never happen at any other time anyway. Same with the bonus damage most items do on a crit, not maxed.

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

I myself don't like the ruling that sneak attack, hunter's quarry, and warlock's curse are maximized on a crit. It just seems counter-intuitive to me. And, if they are going to have those things max on a crit, then I think it should be universal with similar mechanics. I mean, why "nerf" the scout and its power strike? (or power strike in general- power strike is a bit meh imo). I could see if something doesn't crit if it is a seperate action, say a free action, like Furious Assault, but if it's no action, I dunno, it just seems more like a rider when something is no action.
Does the Executioner's Attack Finesse max on a crit? After all, its not a power, rather, it's like sneak attack, warlock's curse, etc.
Are O-assassin shrouds maxed on a crit? Given that they are invoked before the attack, they very damn well should be.

 

[Larrin]

"Maximum Damage: Rather than roll damage, determine the maximum damage you can roll with your attack. This is your critical damage. (Attacks that don’t deal damage still don’t deal damage on a critical hit.)"

the wording of critical hits maxing damage.


"The target takes 1[W] extra damage from the triggering attack."

That's the wording of power strike. The damage is from the triggering attack, and on a crit all damage from that attack is maximized (except for damage triggered by the crit itself). Furious assault is similar.

for comparison:
weapon finesse(executioner): "In addition, once per turn you can deal 1d8 extra damage with a weapon attack"->still the attack doing the damage->maximize.

shroud wording: "If you invoke your shrouds, the attack deals 1d6 damage per shroud, minus one shroud if the attack misses"-> still the attack doing the damage->maximize.

wording for curse/sneak attack: "If you hit a cursed enemy with an attack, you deal extra damage." less obvious, numerous designers have stated it is intended you maximize this. Thus this wording and similar types of additional damage should be maximized.

Bottom line: everyone, ever, has said that you maximize sneak attack and its the least obviously maximized extra dice roll you can add. If an attack triggers the damage, whether its from the attack or _with_ the attack (whatever that means), its maxed when the attack is a crit. (but not bonus crit damage, of course). Crits are designed to be nasty, this is for the fun of the player.

 

[Klaus]

RAW is that ANY damage that would normally be done by the attack if it were NOT a critical is maximized. Since things like SA damage etc are part of the attack (they are riders and aren't powers at all) they max.

Things like Power Strike and Furious Assault aren't attacks. They are separate powers with triggers which have damage effects. They definitionally can never be crits. Because they ARE separate by strict RAW they don't participate in a crit even though they're triggered by an attack that is a crit. I don't know if this is something the designers never thought about or what, but I'm pretty sure you won't find anything more specific than the general rules on this one. I'm pretty sure though that the PHB1 FAQ does point out the maxing of striker bonus damage dice.

AFAIK, Power Attack *is* maximized on a crit. That's why it's a good idea to spend it when you score a crit.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

"Maximum Damage: Rather than roll damage, determine the maximum damage you can roll with your attack. This is your critical damage. (Attacks that don’t deal damage still don’t deal damage on a critical hit.)"

the wording of critical hits maxing damage.


"The target takes 1[W] extra damage from the triggering attack."

That's the wording of power strike. The damage is from the triggering attack, and on a crit all damage from that attack is maximized (except for damage triggered by the crit itself). Furious assault is similar.

for comparison:
weapon finesse(executioner): "In addition, once per turn you can deal 1d8 extra damage with a weapon attack"->still the attack doing the damage->maximize.

shroud wording: "If you invoke your shrouds, the attack deals 1d6 damage per shroud, minus one shroud if the attack misses"-> still the attack doing the damage->maximize.

wording for curse/sneak attack: "If you hit a cursed enemy with an attack, you deal extra damage." less obvious, numerous designers have stated it is intended you maximize this. Thus this wording and similar types of additional damage should be maximized.

Bottom line: everyone, ever, has said that you maximize sneak attack and its the least obviously maximized extra dice roll you can add. If an attack triggers the damage, whether its from the attack or _with_ the attack (whatever that means), its maxed when the attack is a crit. (but not bonus crit damage, of course). Crits are designed to be nasty, this is for the fun of the player.

Eh, sorry, I should look up Power Attack. Have not had to deal with an E-fighter in play, so I guess I didn't know it was worded that way.

The general point stands. Specific wording aside just because something is triggered by a hit and the hit is a crit doesn't automatically mean that whatever was triggered is 'part of the attack'. MANY things do clearly state that they are, or simply aren't powers and thus by default MUST be part of the attack. Other things aren't, though I am not going to dig for an example right now.

Anyway, thx for the clarification.