Crusade

[WizarDru]

wow, that is completely different than the impression I got of the centuari. They struck me much more as a roman style "Nice god, I can use that one too" kind of people. There's one episode where londo is bemoaning his state of affairs to Vir and he says "How many gods to we Centauri have?" which vir answers with some very large (in the hundreds?) but precise number, and londo says "and how many of them must I have offended to deserve this?" (to which the reply is of course "uh, all of them?")

Several things are made clear about the Centuari:

1. They exterminated (i.e. Genocide) every other culture and a second race they shared Centauri Prime with (known as the Xan)
2. The Centauri believe in 'house gods' and the ability of ancestors to rise to divinity. On several occasions, mentions are made of relatives or powerful individuals becoming revered dieties (again, simliar to medieval Japan)
3. The Centauri, like the colonial Deists, believe in a Great Maker, essentially a 'great clockmaker' who doesn't actually affect daily lives...that's what the house gods do.
4. The worship of individual gods is similar to the Romans, where you pay them respect, more than actively worship them, per se.
   [/list=1]
   
   The Narn have several religions, although only one is detailed beyond lip-service...by necessity. The Minbari are the victims of so many other races abuse (from the Vorlons to the One himself), they just want to find some sort of stability. The Vorlons...well, they're the Vorlons. We know they revere the old ones, but that's about it. The concept of 'gods' may be something they don't accept.
   
   
   As for humans, well...B5 was lauded for it's even-handed treatment of religion multiple times, particularly for things like standing shiva (sp?), and showing multiple religions in a positive light, as opposed to letting them fall into classic stereotypes. YMMV.

 

[S'mon]

The big difference in B5 religions seems to be between the Vorlon-created/influenced revelatory ones with 'angelic' figures (like that of the Minbari, Narns, & Earth Christianity, Islam & Judaism) and those created without Vorlon influence, like the Centauri religion and by inference Earth polytheist faiths like that of the Romans. This actually says something very sinister about religion - 'good' religions are Vorlon tools, adherents of 'neutral' ones are susceptible to Shadow influence, none are 'true' - but B5 did it subtly enough not to cause much offense.

 

[Mallus]

The trumpeting of human superiority in B5 was not terribly subtle at times.

Yes, that's true. But that's a characteristic of a lot of SF. Its a genre that trades in both anxieties about the future and an overall hopefullness about it.

But I still think that B5 is substantially different in its assessment, and frequent celebration of human {well, Western} cultural values. A fascist cabal takes over the dominant democratic Earth government. Even before that the governments treatment of its colonies, not to mention its telepathic citizens bordered on abhorent. Even technologically, Earth was backwards compared to the other spacefaring races. Our saving grace was consensus building, an openess to new ideas, the sense of wonder at the universe {which wasn't shared by the majority, not by a long shot}.

Another very disapointing thing JMS did that just screamed 'trek' was presenting alien religions or superstitions as analogies for problems with real life ones (the family who killed their child after surgery, the race that died off in superstitious response to a plauge)

Using alien cultures in an allegorical fashion is one of the pillars of SF. I think its a strength shared by Trek and B5. Casting these issues in term of made-up cultures gives a safe, comforting sense of distance from the actual. It keeps people's tempers in check.

And what I took away from the kid/surgery ep. was that Frankin {and with him human rationalism} was dead wrong in that case. The parent's had no logical way to know that the surgery had been performed. But they did. And I was left believing the kid's soul was really gone. It was one of my favorite scenes in any SF show.

OK, rants and essays aside, my point is that the criticisms you are making of trek can be fairly applied to B5 just as easily.

Sure. I agree. But my central complaint is that the Star Trek franchises have become dull, lifeless, as dramatic as empty space. And this goes beyond the characters into the universe they inhabit.

snip...subtlely show the equality of the future, but make it good and clear that humans in general and a culture that looks strikingly western is just good to the bone, despite some bad apples...

But human culture isn't good to the bone. Neither are alien cultures. The human created Alliance collapses, and it certainly begins fraying a scant few decades after its inception. The shows basic point is a heroic take on history: at critical moments the actions of a few individuals can shape the tide of history --a tide in a sea of prejudice, fear, greed, and naked grabs for power...

You know, I'm not a orthodox member of the Cult of Joe, either. In the end I think DS9 is a better show. But I do think there's a lot to admire in B5.

 

[Staffan]

wow, that is completely different than the impression I got of the centuari. They struck me much more as a roman style "Nice god, I can use that one too" kind of people. There's one episode where londo is bemoaning his state of affairs to Vir and he says "How many gods to we Centauri have?" which vir answers with some very large (in the hundreds?) but precise number, and londo says "and how many of them must I have offended to deserve this?" (to which the reply is of course "uh, all of them?")

I think the number was something along the lines of 50, plus various household gods. There was also mention of one god whose divinity was disputed.

 

[Staffan]

As an atheist myself, like JMS, JMS' treating of Earth religions with respect - including future-fictional ones, presumably - never bothered me.

JMS has recently mentioned in various USENet posts that his own spiritual beliefs are relatively close to those of the Foundationists on the show (or rather, vice versa).

 

[Mallus]

JMS has recently mentioned in various USENet posts that his own spiritual beliefs are relatively close to those of the Foundationists on the show (or rather, vice versa).

That's pretty interesting. I never got the impression that Franklin's Foundationist views were presented in a particularly positive light. I thought the Jesuits came off much better.

 

[Mallus]

...snip... in Trek elections & even the concept of democracy seem to be as dead as capitalism, moreso really in that capitalism survives on the fringes of Federation society, as in the USSR, and we occasionally see merchant types like Quark operating in Federation territory, while I don't think democracy has ever even been mentioned since TOS.

I'm embarrassed to admit I'd never thought of that... That's great. Not only is the Federation post-capitalist {which is fine given they've all but licked the problem of scarcity --terms of both energy and materials}, but they're vaguely post-democratic as well. I can't recall a single mention of a Federation election. Sure, there's Starfleet Council, but there's the loya jirga in Afganistan. For all the actually evidence there is Starfleet is an enormously wealthy military dictatorship which provides ample comfort and personal liberty {to most}.

I don't think Voyager's Starfleet would publish an organ called 'Truth' - I get the impression they don't publish _anything_, and the existence of a newspaper called 'Truth' would imply there could be such a thing as 'Lies'. Starfleet-Federation seem careful never to enter into any kind of self-justificatory debate that could cause doubt in people's minds. Rather they must simply be accepted as the Only Possible Way. The system aims to make dissent literally inconceivable. I expect that dissenters are not argued with, or punished. They are, rather, _treated_ - as the mentally ill ought to be, for their own good...

The Federation as the end of the dialectic, as well as the end of history... that's just great. Cold, but great.

I suppose you could read it as a canny, if somewhat dull exploration of Marx's workers paradise fused with the West's capitalist material paradise. Work has largely gone away do to technological advances. Lots of people have lots of neat toys. I guess if the base standard of living is high enough, democratic institutions become largely irrelevant, if not non-existant.

 

[S'mon]

The Federation as the end of the dialectic, as well as the end of history... that's just great. Cold, but great.

I suppose you could read it as a canny, if somewhat dull exploration of Marx's workers paradise fused with the West's capitalist material paradise. Work has largely gone away do to technological advances. Lots of people have lots of neat toys. I guess if the base standard of living is high enough, democratic institutions become largely irrelevant, if not non-existant.

They don't seem to have that many toys, though - no privately owned starships, or even private holodecks. There's no sign of any 'media' entertainment. Civilian life within the core of the Federation is very rarely examined, but doesn't seem particularly pleasant* unless you like growing grapes for fun - there's no money, so Picard's brother presumably can't sell the wine he makes. I did see the DS9 episode where Bashir's parents are tried by a Federation military-Starfleet court (is there any other kind?) for using genetic engineering/therapy on their son.

*Partly this depends on whether replicators are available to pivate citizens. If so, at least they can make nice things to play with.

Is the Federation a military dictatorship? Functionally it seems to be run by a self-selected elite, something like the later USSR. Officially in TNG+, Starfleet is 'not a military organisation', a bit of Orwellian Newspeak if ever there was one.

I guess I'd classify it as a bureaucratic totalitarian oligarchy - you can achieve membership in the ruling elite through rising in the ranks of Starfleet. It's totalitarian because there's no private ownership in the sense of property rights, indeed individuals seem to have little or no rights vs the State.

I find B5's depiction of future human society (still democratic, still trying to get it right) much less scary than Trek's. Only the lack of overt brutality against its citizens really distinguishes it from the Federation of Blake's Seven.

 

[Umbran]

- in Trek elections & even the concept of democracy seem to be as dead as capitalism, moreso really in that capitalism survives on the fringes of Federation society, as in the USSR, and we occasionally see merchant types like Quark operating in Federation territory, while I don't think democracy has ever even been mentioned since TOS.

Hm, and come to think of it, I don't think they've ever mentioned liverwurst, maple trees, or the city of Frankfurt, either. Must be that those don't exist on Earth in the Trek universe, either.

You've fallen into one of the oldest traps in the book - lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. The fact that the details of Federation governance don't get mentioned does not imply anything specific about those details. All it says is that the writers and producers chose not to tell stories about those details.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Hm, and come to think of it, I don't think they've ever mentioned liverwurst, maple trees, or the city of Frankfurt, either. Must be that those don't exist on Earth in the Trek universe, either.

You've fallen into one of the oldest traps in the book - lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. The fact that the details of Federation governance don't get mentioned does not imply anything specific about those details. All it says is that the writers and producers chose not to tell stories about those details.

There is plenty of evidence.

1. Bashir's parents are tried and convicted by a Starfleet JAG officer for using gene engineering on their son. When did it become the militaries job to try civilians for breakingt he law?

2. When Earth was threatened by the Dominion you only saw Starfleet personel. There was not a single civilian leader anywhere being briefed on the situation.

3. Starfleet officers quite often acted as police on Federation worlds often acting to put down the Maquis.

4. No one owns private ships except people who turn out to be smugglers and operate outside of Federation territory.

5. Federation money is useless outside of the Federation. EVeryone instead uses Gold Pressed Latinum as barter.

6. Several times it has been mentioned that Starfleet has imposed news blackouts about this or that event. How could they do this if there was democracy and a civilian government?