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Cultural Appropriation in role-playing games (draft)

Dimitrios

First Post
I tend to agree that cultural appropriation is a no value added term. Except for a few extreme cases, people who decry cultural appropriation insist that they're not advocating for unbreachable walls between cultures (as though that could possibly make any sense in any case), so that no one who isn't Thai should use Thai spices in their cooking and no one who isn't Japanese should incorporate manga influences in how they draw characters & etc.

When asked "OK, what <i>are</i> advocating against?", the answer is generally something along the lines of representing other cultures as crude stereotypes, or outright stealing whole styles without any acknowledgement of where they came from, or imitating some cultural practice in disrespectful or mocking way. The thing is, those are concrete, specific objectionable things, so if that's what you mean, why not say that? The primary distinguishing feature of cultural appropriation as a concept is its vagueness.
 

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Bagpuss

Legend
I wasn't saying he did.

I knew that, sorry if you thought I didn't. I was just making the point that the vast majority of people
(even those of the supposedly offend against culture) had no issue with either of those examples.

I was just making the point that it's fair for folks to weigh in with opinions on the matter once something is published.

I think there is an issue actually, both those examples were pretty mild, nothing like the issue with blackface or even the issue with the Washington Redskins.

If small numbers of individuals and they are small numbers with mild examples like these (the petition against The Strange barely got half to its 1,000 target) continue this call out culture to even the mildest of what they consider offense, then it creates an environment where people won't be willing to take any risk. There won't be another publisher that will risk the fallout from doing a native american setting.

I think while people are welcome to comment, there should be an expectation that their comments automatically have value and should be listened to.
 

I think there is an issue actually, both those examples were pretty mild, nothing like the issue with blackface or even the issue with the Washington Redskins.

If small numbers of individuals and they are small numbers with mild examples like these (the petition against The Strange barely got half to its 1,000 target) continue this call out culture to even the mildest of what they consider offense, then it creates an environment where people won't be willing to take any risk. There won't be another publisher that will risk the fallout from doing a native american setting.

I think while people are welcome to comment, there should be an expectation that their comments automatically have value and should be listened to.

That is an issue of how people choose to respond to criticisms. My point is offensive treatment of a culture is fair game for critique. What constitutes offensive is another matter and probably beyond the scope of this thread. As I said before, not every critique is reasonable. Just as people have a right to weigh in on something, the designer and others have a right to evaluate the criticism and decide if it is grounded in anything.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I don't think this is true at all. I think it may play into to the hands of bigoted people but I see these as two very different things and see no causal link leading from white supremacy to CA in history.

Drawing the direct historical links, this person read this person, who read this person, who read this person, and so forth goes beyond the discussion and would probably be even more politically inflammatory than I already am. But I do there is a direct line of influence, a descent through modification between the 19th century writers and the modern movement along multiple lines right back to Condorcet, and from that you can see everything from White Man's Burden to Identity Politics and how different writers shaped that thought to where we are now.

To me it seems the intent is sincere. There may be bad actors but I am not going to project motives onto everyone who subscribes to cultural appropriation.

Nor did I. I don't at all question that the vast majority have the best of intentions and really believe that what they are saying is about restorative justice, any more than I claim that everyone who held racialist beliefs in the past was necessarily a hateful person. We can find many examples of people who very much assumed a racialist description of the world was a true one, that nonetheless admired, worked with, advocated for, and perhaps even genuinely loved people of different races. This juxtaposition of holding that a person's race defined them and yet not necessarily having hateful intent seems very jarring to us from our present vantage, but it really need not - we can find many parallel examples today if we take our blinders off.

I used to be a colleague of a black ex-boxer that had found religion. We were rather friendly and had long talks about religion and politics during breaks in the work. One day he told me, "It's a shame that you were born white." I laughed and asked him why, and he said, "I won't know you in Heaven, because white people don't have souls." He didn't mean it in any particularly hateful way. He certainly would have considered it incompatible with his religion to treat me poorly on account of my infirmity (if you will). He just matter of factly believed that white people through no fault of their own weren't really people.

The same sort of good intentioned racism permeates the "politically correct" movement. It likewise has parallels among the typical beliefs of my Southern forbearer 2 or 3 generations back. Many people who read the sequel to "To Kill a Mockingbird" were shocked at the portrayal of Atticus as holding racist views as being incongruous with the profound sense of justice he demonstrates in the first book. I found it very creditable, as far more reflective of reality than Atticus as ideal modern man. I'd met people much the same, that held to both the racialist view that race was a very real and inescapable destiny, but also that was no reason to mistreat anyone and that it was a sign of poor character - and beneath their dignity - to do so. "Politically correct" advocates tend strike me of being, at their best, of the same sort.

And at their worst, they remind me of the KKK members I argued with in high school, except that the KKK had the good grace to blush when confronted with their hatred and hypocrisy.

I do think Cultural Appropriation as it has come to be understood, leads to people being more divided and locked inside their own cultural paradigm though. But I don't believe that is the goal or that it arises from a belief in racial essentialism (or supremacy).

I believe that not only does it arise out of racial essentialism, but that the language of it is frequently taken up by those that believe in a racial supremacy or superiority.

And without getting into the details here which would be even more politically charged than this thread unavoidably is, the general theory that "political correctness" arises from a response to racial essentialism that argues against the outcome ("white supremacy") but not the axioms in which that theory is grounded, or which in in the case of feminism argues against the outcome but not the axioms of male chauvinism, is not I think a particularly surprising or strained one at first glance. Leaving aside the specific writers that armed the feelings with ideas and language, I generally proposing the following:

a) People that are abused, often are observed becoming the very thing that they hate. Thus, people respond to abuse with abuse, becoming abusive at a notably higher rate than those not so ill-treated. There is nothing particular hard to understand about how injustice damages ones trust in justice.
b) When you are steeped in a particular cultural paradigm, it's often very difficult to notice the framework for it. It's very natural when presented implicitly with A, and then the claim that A->B, to argue against the implication and not the factuality of the initial claim. It just becomes an unconsidered fact. For example, when someone claims, "Whites are superior to blacks.", and you are living in a world where the social reality of being black versus being white is so self-evident, it's very difficult to question the claim on the basis that maybe race is principally an artificial social construct and much of what you think of as defining who you are isn't really part of your skin color or any other physical part of you. And, even when you do accept that it is, it's very hard to avoid coming back to that idea of essential difference and reinventing it.
c) The same tempting beliefs that led people to propose white supremacy or male supremacy, are still present in people who are arguing against those beliefs.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Umbran I only brought up tone because you were advocating the utility of shaming and guilting people.

Nope. You brought up tone when you referred to "bludgeoning". You said, "I've just never really seen it help anything. It is either a bludgeon to bang people over the head with ..."

This is very much trying to discount the concept based not upon its content, but upon how it is used. That, right there, is the Tone Argument. The Tone Argument comes up a lot in other areas of social equality - the "Not All Men" argument is really underneath a tone argument.


You seemed to be making the claim that using cultural appropriation as a bludgeon was effective (in response to me saying it tends to result in bludgeoning or confusion).

I don't think the *utility* of shame and guilt are in question. Broadly speaking, they *work*, they are effective. We are primates, and our psyches are built with these elements precisely to help control our behavior. They are a natural part of our social behavior.

When use of these things is appropriate is a separate question from their effectiveness :)

I am not going to get into a debate over fallacies..

'I don't care if my argument is actually valid"? Really?

but I think here discussion of tone is relevant.

It is... and it isn't. It is only relevant if the other party already views you as an ally, and is looking to you for guidance on how to reach others.

Before you are recognized as an ally, attempting the Tone Argument is basically telling them, "You shouldn't tell me that, because it makes me feel bad." In that statement, you take what they feel is a real problem, and you redirect discussion to be one about *your* feelings, rather than their problem. That's at best disrespectful, at worst darned manipulative - do you realize that abusive relationships are often based on the same dynamic?
 
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Nope. You brought up tone when you referred to "bludgeoning". You said, "I've just never really seen it help anything. It is either a bludgeon to bang people over the head with ..."

This is very much trying to discount the concept based not upon its content, but upon how it is used. That, right there, is the Tone Argument. It amounts to, "DOn't tell me that, it makes me feel bad," which, really, is irrelevant. They have a problem, and you try to make the discussion about your feelings? Why do they care?
.

This was about its effectiveness as a tool and model for understanding. You can invoke the tone argument all you want, but I think both how the concept gets used by people (which includes tone but isn't limited to it) and its general murkiness are quite relevant to the discussion. Tone does matter. It does have an impact. I do think it is important. But that isn't why I brought up bludgeoning. I was saying I see it used as a rhetorical bludgeon but to no other real effect. At least in discussions outside of sociology. That isn't an appeal to emotion. That is a fair criticism of an idea that claims to be more than a rhetorical device. It is supposed to be an effective model for understanding cultural exchange and for improving interactions between cultures. I don't see it doing either once it moves outside a highly specialized field. And I think it does more harm than good, as we can see by the premise of the OP which advocates for fences and walls between cultures on the grounds that it always leads to harm when white people borrow from other cultures.

In fact I would argue that your post here is much more of an appeal to emotion because it tries to frame people who bring up the issue of tone as thin-skinned and weak (i.e. "DOn't tell me that, it makes me feel bad...."). Again, I am not terribly interested in debating logical fallacies, since I had enough of that in college, but they are over invoked in these discussions and I don't think the tone argument fallacy is all that persuasive here. Of course if you think it is you are free to ignore my point regarding CA being used as a bludgeon. And if you think that makes me thin skinned or something, that is fair. I am not terribly concerned about that.

Also let's keep in mind this whole topic is built around concern for peoples' feelings. The whole reason cultural appropriation is invoked in the first place is because presumably people have been hurt by others using their cultural symbols in ways they consider to be offensive or inappropriate. I don't know, I think it is reasonable for both sides in such a debate to point to concern about tone and call for greater empathy (this is one reason I've been careful to emphasize that cultural sensitivity is still important).
 
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Before you are recognized as an ally, attempting the Tone Argument is basically telling them, "You shouldn't tell me that, because it makes me feel bad." In that statement, you take what they feel is a real problem, and you redirect discussion to be one about *your* feelings, rather than their problem. That's at best disrespectful, at worst darned manipulative - do you realize that abusive relationships are often based on the same dynamic?

Umbran I don't think I've deflected much. I've responded to each of your points as you've raised them. Nor do I think I made it about my feelings. The only time I brought up my feelings was with one of your posts, which I felt suggested I was arguing in bad faith.

I certainly don't think I've been disrespectful to anyone, except perhaps early on in the discusssion when I could have addressed one of the OP's points with more politeness.
 
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'I don't care if my argument is actually valid"? Really?
?

That isn't what I said. Like I said before, if you feel I've been making invalid arguments, feel free to discount them. I've raised a lot of the points beyond just the one about bludgeoning though.
 
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I don't think the *utility* of shame and guilt are in question. Broadly speaking, they *work*, they are effective. We are primates, and our psyches are built with these elements precisely to help control our behavior. They are a natural part of our social behavior.

This is an interesting point and I don't think I gave it a fair reply in my initial response.

I think this is fair to say. I would add that just because something comes natural to primates and just because we are primates, that doesn't mean it is good (or that it is useful). I would also add that something being effective in one instance doesn't mean it is effective in another (nor does being effective mean we ought to do something----kicking a person in the head can be very effective, but I would generally cdvise against it). Shame can certain produce results. But when I questioned its effectiveness as a bludgeon I wasn't thinking whether it was useful at making people feel ashamed and not engaging in behavior. I think CA as a bludgeon is effective at making people feel shame and avoid cultural borrowing, and that is the problem. It isn't an effective tool because it doesn't really do anything to remedy problems surrounding cultural exchange and imbalance, it just creates more of a gulf between cultures because it causes people to avoid stepping out of their own cultural paradigm and into another. It encourages people to remain within their group. At its most extreme, I think you get what the OP is advocating which is blanket condemnation of any culture perceived to be more powerful than another from engaging in that culture (and in my experience it is cultural borrowing that is an important part of getting the more powerful culture to empathize with the less powerful one in the first place). Like I said, I think cultural sensitivity is a good a good thing. I just don't think it is a good thing for us to build walls.
 

Raloc

First Post
In my experience people concerned about "cultural appropriation" tend to be mostly authoritarians who want to dictate that everyone in the world live by their rules, no argument.
 

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