Pathfinder 1E D & D and/or Pathfinder, the effects of selective spell exclusions

[Ramm83]

Back in 3.5 i DMed in a setting called Midnight (from Fantasy Flight Games), thing was some evil god took over the world and was the only god left. Somehow he had cloaked the world from all other planes making summons, all teleport spells, planar travels, even clerics non existant. I must say it was one of the most intense games i DMed, especially since everything was evil and dark.

Then for a normal game world (standard fantasy), i wouldn't block out teleport because it is convenient. First of all there are not that many wizards who constantly teleport all the world around ( normally only the PCs do this kind of thing ). Then the enemy's on later lvl ( if you going to use Demons or Devils and stuff like that ) have teleport self at will. So a spellcaster who needs to prepare this spell isn't overpowered at all.

Sure you lose travel time of the PCs in wilderness and they can skip a lot of random encounters. But if you know they are using teleport extensively, let them do it. No need to prepare and read up on randomencounters while traveling, just adjust your adventure.

Currently i am running Dragonlance Key of Destiny AP converged to pathfinder for my players and somewhere around lvl 7 they will find the tears of mishakal, a major artifact needed in their quest. Thing is when this artifact is around and someone tries to teleport, the artifact automatically casts dimensional anchor on itself, thus leaving the artifact where it is. Eventually on lvl 15 or 16, they will have delivered this artifact at some place, thus making teleport readily available.

 

[Eman Resu]

I dont know if you are missing my point(s) or just didn't address them in detail. I'm not asking if its a good idea to or not to remove teleport, to remove long distance magical communications and planar travel. I am however, asking for you to identify the changes that would take place, consequences that may arise, looking for ramifications from making this/these decisions.

Removing teleport was really just part of my inquiry. But its effects on spellcasters and society are not to be underestimated. Oh and just for clarification when I say wizards I meant to include any and all mortal spellcasters or manifesters divine, psionic or arcane. Demons, angels, Devils are not mortal and have these abilities although gimped. Only the gods have not been gimped.

On top of removing teleport I am also removing or severely nerfing any long range communication spells, psionics and magicals. This to will trigger some changes. Maybe that speedy horse messenger can dust off his saddle and get back to work. Maybe the pigeon master will be employed again.

Religion is going to be forced to have logic and rational applied to it with a heaping application of realism. (Realism of course being relative to the fantasy adventure world). Here is what I mean, gods of same pantheon can at times work together but barring the very good aligned exceptions, they will be very competitive with one another. WHY? Because gods are directly empowered by the amount of their worshippers, in fact with out them, they die! So their very lives depend upon being worshipped. If the gods church on other side of street is stealing faithful worshippers, he is literally taking power from him while growing his own. This will lead to conflict. SO its with this in mind that #1 clerics are actively spewing forth the greatness of their gods, nothing has changed here, added is the competitive insulting/degrading of other gods, even if gods are similarly aligned. There is no such thing as a wandering (adventuring) cleric. Its a matter of time before they would be confronted at minimum, but not all that uncommon they are killed, usually after a day of torture and public humiliation by town inquisitor.

And lastly spellcasters will not just be able to set up shop in some random town, if they are allowed to do so it is under the direct protection dare I say supervision of the local lord. Ask yourself, "why would a lord allow some stranger to make and sell magicals"? Indeed this is a security threat to say the least.

This is a kingdom based campaign, not dungeon dwelling.

 

[Celebrim]

I dont know if you are missing my point(s) or just didn't address them in detail. I'm not asking if its a good idea to or not to remove teleport, to remove long distance magical communications and planar travel. I am however, asking for you to identify the changes that would take place, consequences that may arise, looking for ramifications from making this/these decisions.

What I have tried to and failed to communicate, is that the typical fantasy world - even the typical D&D fantasy world - is written as if it was a world were teleport didn't exist, and the consequences of teleport existing are not typically worked out by the settings creator. We would expect teleportation, even if it was rare, to have a huge consequence for how society functioned, but in practice there is no evidence from the text in typical fantasy world building.

So, if you leave it out, typically it will have zero impact on the setting. Whereas, if you keep it in, and you want the setting to be internally consistent, typically you have to make at least some very large changes in the setting.

On top of removing teleport I am also removing or severely nerfing any long range communication spells, psionics and magicals. This to will trigger some changes. Maybe that speedy horse messenger can dust off his saddle and get back to work. Maybe the pigeon master will be employed again.

Depending on the level of magic in your setting, the horse messenger and the pigeon master probably already had plenty of work.

Religion is going to be forced to have logic and rational applied to it with a heaping application of realism. (Realism of course being relative to the fantasy adventure world). Here is what I mean, gods of same pantheon can at times work together but barring the very good aligned exceptions, they will be very competitive with one another. WHY? Because gods are directly empowered by the amount of their worshippers, in fact with out them, they die! So their very lives depend upon being worshipped.

This is, to be frank, nonsense. Even if the setting assumes the truth of your assertion that gods are created by mortals and not the other way around, your assertion excludes polytheism as a practice despite the fact that the average D&D universe would appear to be exclusively polytheist. In general, in most religions gods aren't 'jealous' when someone worships someone other than them. They only get offended when they aren't worshipped. In polytheism, people don't worship single deities at all. They worship multiple deities simultaneously, emphasizing others in different times and situations. And in general, in polytheism neither is it the case that the god is devoted to his worshipers or that the worshippers are devoted to the god. In fact, a worshiper will frequently worship a god they despise rather than adore, simply to propitiate a deity and avert his wrath. For example, the ancient Spartans were largely Apollo and Athena worshipers, but they had a temple to Ares as well. In the temple, Ares was kept symbolically chained down, so that he could not leave Sparta and bless their enemies. This was not necessarily a respectful loving adoring worshipful way to treat your God, but it was an act of reverence and fear.

No D&D deity in the traditional polytheistic setting D&D establishes as the authority or ability to address all of a worshiper's needs anyway. The D&D in charge of fire can't necessarily ensure the health of your crops, the security of your business ventures, the safety of your children, and all the other things you might want to ensure. It's reasonable to believe that groups of deities in the situation you describe would band together for mutual success and protection. You'd only be a rival with another deity if the deities core portfolio overlaps with yours (as in the case of say Ares and Athena) or if the deity has a portfolio that fundamentally opposes yours; for example, chastity versus lust, or family versus hedonism.

So yeah, I don't see where you are coming from. Most D&D worlds more or less automatically assume something like that. Indeed, if you want to make them more coherent, you should instead of having PC's or NPC's have a single patron deity, emphasize that most characters broadly worship many gods depending on the season and situation.

And lastly spellcasters will not just be able to set up shop in some random town, if they are allowed to do so it is under the direct protection dare I say supervision of the local lord. Ask yourself, "why would a lord allow some stranger to make and sell magicals"? Indeed this is a security threat to say the least.

While that is reasonable, I have no idea what it has to do with banning teleport. If you disallow certain powerful spells, it makes wizards without license or restriction at least somewhat more reasonable and not less.

 

[Eman Resu]

Banning teleport is not related to banning of magic shops. What I am looking at here is the effects of the way you would play your spell-caster, and how would you expect a NPC spell-slinger be adjusted knowing these spelss and others are banned.

Teleport and other long ranged travel & communications are banned by the gods.

Those spells simply have never existed for mortals. Kingdoms will be forced to send messengers the old fashioned way. They will be forced to travel, as a result there are larger than norm caravans.

Magic shops dont exist to the public because any lord over seeing an area would be immediately threatened by someone lobbing magical scimitars about. If there is a spell-caster selling magical its done thru
1) the black market (enter seedy types thieves guilds etc) could very easily to probably ripped off
2) from a "secured location" within the castle grounds, pretty much a forced situation (so he can be controlled/watched)
3) from outside any patrolled areas, 50 miles from any town, out in the middle of nowhere where they are not monitored, he doesn't pay taxes. This can be a dangerous venture for an adventurer with a pocket full of coin n gems. A couple of spells by wizard and your in some big trouble...and far away from everything so nobody to hear your scream(s)
4) a wizard trying to hide what he is doing and conducts business secretly not using the black market...again a dangerous situation

Your assuming I am having people(s) worship multiple gods and this is not wrong, they can and do. BUT any competition of over-lapping domains, such as 2 gods with war as a domain, they will be unfriendly to outright fighting in this campaign. So for you to say its nonsense, I think your applying what your accustom to and not taking into account this is its own unique campaign.

There is going to be a little more witch hunting going on, more inquisitors followed by lots of burning at the stake torture and imprisonment. Clerics are seldom seen just wandering about, they are part of a large institution and advocate on behalf of such vigorously.

 

[Hereticus]

After discussions of this many players DMs agreed...most campaigns, if not all, have a old guy making magicals at your request in most towns. This is a problem on several levels

#1) why would a ruler allow somebody to make and sell items to his enemies...isnt this treason?
#2) the most valuable items are magicked...the removal of teleport and like "movement spells" makes wizards very unsafe
#3) How are sorcerers, an untrained class, able to know how to do anything without being trained???

In the major town I use (Constantinople, copied from Dark Ages), there are multiple magic guilds that only sell the good stuff to members and allies.

 

[Hereticus]

Banning teleport is not related to banning of magic shops. What I am looking at here is the effects of the way you would play your spell-caster, and how would you expect a NPC spell-slinger be adjusted knowing these spells and others are banned.

Teleport and other long ranged travel & communications are banned by the gods.

Those spells simply have never existed for mortals. Kingdoms will be forced to send messengers the old fashioned way. They will be forced to travel, as a result there are larger than norm caravans.

While I have never outright banned Teleport or other spells, I have put impediments in front of casters such as a Dimensional Lock or an Anti-Magic Bubble or zone around a city or other location.

 

[Eman Resu]

what I have done is create a campaign where there exists many differences, alterations & restrictions beyond the norm.

game breaking/world altering spells are just gone, having never existed. Most of these spells do not make the game more enjoyable these spells are never needed to further a plot, in fact they would most commonly end a well crafted plot with twists and surprises

a mage with teleport and other long range travel spells are not game breaking in and of themselves. Admittedly its what they can do when they get there that is potentially game breaking. But now at least a wizard must travel before unleashing devastation on a populace. Escaping from situations, what I called the "get out of jail free card" is a decidedly powerful action as it prolongs your life beyond being a Ogres dinner or some other unpleasantness. Without these spells many campaign would have been altered radically.

SOME OTHER CHANGES THAT DIFFER FROM THE NORM - I hope you find interesting and I would enjoy a relative discussion

Sorcerers: In our campaigns serve as those that were simply born with spell-power, inherited, gifted or ritualized. The Sorcerer is a untrained class. They are naturally charismatic people that please the senses charming, alluring even intimidating if need be. The spells they cast are from a fixed list. If all Sorcerers were left to select spells you would see, AS WE ALL HAVE, the usual cast of characters. That is to say many sorcerers would have very similar list to one another. Thankfully bloodlines break up some of this repetitiveness offering some individuality and uniqueness...
-NPC sorcerers will have their spell lists randomly selected, with just 1 spell per level chosen or bloodline fixed.
-PC sorcerer will select their own spells up to their CHA mod., so 18 cha = you have 4 spells, no level limit, that you selected. 1 spell per level (just like NPC sorcerer) will be chosen by DM, USUALLY a bloodline influenced decision here, the rest are randomly rolled/selected.
-Sorcerer cannot make magical items, those are trained feats and as such they must receive training to use. 1 Sorcerer would be able to train another most certainly, ITS just that their doesn't exist a "sorcerer guild" thus the gratuitous meeting of a willing Sorcerer is left to happenstance. You might have to track one down. Wizards, the nerds of the casting world, can be wooed by the charms, affections and friendly nature of Sorcerer, its just getting to meet one that is hard (lil buggers are tucked away in their labs) most wizards are apprehensive and secretive.
-Sorcerers dont use nor have to pay for any spell components, ESCHEW MATERIALS ON STEROIDS!
-Sorcerers dont suffer longer casting time associated with metamagic feats with bloodline spells nor the spells in their cha mod selection.

PSIONS: Similar to Sorcerers in that they are born with powers. They have little control over what powers they will know, similarly the Psion can choose their int mod in powers. The psion does not have a bloodline but they do have a discipline and at least 1 power per level is selected from this list.


WIZARDS: While they enjoy the freedom of spell selection everyday, they will need to know what is coming up in the day to select the proper spell list. This is normal...so far, right? Enter my twist! As mentioned previously wizards tend to be un-trusting of others, secretive and are prone to isolation. There are no "magic shops" you can just walk into and buy magics or spells. Their items and tools are very expensive. They need to be guarded and protected.

You see wizards need spell casting materials, they need to be trained, they need a full lab for their work.
Wizards do not trade spells with one another, not in this campaign, evil wizards will look to kill and steal from other wizards, good wizards may work with each other, but often fall victim to the evil wizos disguising themselves.

 

[Hereticus]

Sorcerers: In our campaigns serve as those that were simply born with spell-power, inherited, gifted or ritualized. The Sorcerer is a untrained class. They are naturally charismatic people that please the senses charming, alluring even intimidating if need be. The spells they cast are from a fixed list. If all Sorcerers were left to select spells you would see, AS WE ALL HAVE, the usual cast of characters. That is to say many sorcerers would have very similar list to one another. Thankfully bloodlines break up some of this repetitiveness offering some individuality and uniqueness...
-NPC sorcerers will have their spell lists randomly selected, with just 1 spell per level chosen or bloodline fixed.
-PC sorcerer will select their own spells up to their CHA mod., so 18 cha = you have 4 spells, no level limit, that you selected. 1 spell per level (just like NPC sorcerer) will be chosen by DM, USUALLY a bloodline influenced decision here, the rest are randomly rolled/selected.
-Sorcerer cannot make magical items, those are trained feats and as such they must receive training to use. A Sorcerer would be able to train another most certainly, IT’S just that there doesn't exist a "sorcerer guild" thus the gratuitous meeting of a willing Sorcerer is left to happenstance. You might have to track one down. Wizards, the nerds of the casting world, can be wooed by the charms, affections and friendly nature of Sorcerer, it’s just getting to meet one that is hard (lil buggers are tucked away in their labs) most wizards are apprehensive and secretive.
-Sorcerers don’t use nor have to pay for any spell components, ESCHEW MATERIALS ON STEROIDS!
-Sorcerers don’t suffer longer casting time associated with metamagic feats with bloodline spells nor the spells in their cha mod selection.

The sorcerer bloodlines are great, they give sorcerer characters the opportunity to be unique. They are definitely not attracted to guilds, and often seek to emulate their blood relatives. My sorcerer is rakshasa bloodline. While he is a cooperative and productive member of the group, his activities when apart from the others can be quite depraved at times.

WIZARDS: While they enjoy the freedom of spell selection everyday, they will need to know what is coming up in the day to select the proper spell list. This is normal...so far, right? Enter my twist! As mentioned previously wizards tend to be un-trusting of others, secretive and are prone to isolation. There are no "magic shops" you can just walk into and buy magics or spells. Their items and tools are very expensive. They need to be guarded and protected.

You see wizards need spell casting materials, they need to be trained, they need a full lab for their work.
Wizards do not trade spells with one another, not in this campaign, evil wizards will look to kill and steal from other wizards, good wizards may work with each other, but often fall victim to the evil wizos disguising themselves.

Probably the game system I like least is how metamagic is done. First you have to waste a feat slot, then you still have to cast the spell at a higher level, then there are some spells that take longer to last. I liked the sudden metafeats in 3.5 edition Complete Arcane book. As DM I chose to give away every meta-feat for free, with the logic that they still have to cast the spell (as normal), but at the higher level. There is also a feat (selectable multiple times) that gives casters one metapoint to be used to eliminate the level increase.

Before I did this, nobody selected metafeats. Now they are used quite a bit, and it is far from broken the game. For example a seventh level wizard could have put all four of its feats into metapoints, which would allow it to cast one quickened fireball. To have blown all four of your feats to get one bonus spell is far from overpowered, and it has added to the game.

Another thing I did was give away all the item creation feats, but made it more difficult to create inks for scrolls, potions, and especially magic items. It basically means that wizards and other spell casters need to join one of the principal guilds if they want to be able to buy materials or create items.

 

[Celebrim]

Teleport and other long ranged travel & communications are banned by the gods.

Those spells simply have never existed for mortals. Kingdoms will be forced to send messengers the old fashioned way. They will be forced to travel, as a result there are larger than norm caravans.

First, in no D&D setting I'm familiar with is teleportation so readily accessible that messages don't get around in the old fashioned way. Teleport first becomes available as a 5th level spell, and its historically been a rather dangerous spell to use casually, so 9th and 10th level spellcasters would require very large inducements before they would teleport anywhere just to deliver a message. Crystal balls require high level spellcasters and an investment in XP to use. In short, most people - even Kings - wouldn't regularly use teleportation to transfer messages in a typical D&D setting. It's possible to have a D&D setting that did, by exploiting other areas of the rules, but I've never seen one that was set up that way.

As such, the typical D&D setting, as I said, is one where teleportation nominally exists, but effectively in how the society is described as functioning, it doesn't. So banning it would make no large change anyway. Castles would still exist. Caravans would still travel. Messengers would ride on the back of steeds to deliver their letters. That's the way a normal D&D setting already works.

Magic shops dont exist to the public because any lord over seeing an area would be immediately threatened by someone lobbing magical scimitars about.

No. The problem with this is that any lord that cracked down on wizards like this, would always loose in a war to any lord that didn't. Any lord that 'cheated' by encouraging wizards to practice their arts in his kingdom, would reap tremendous economic and technical benefits. In particular, he'd be far better armed than any of his neighbors. So any culture that made the decision you claim is normal, would eventually certainly go extinct - conquered by those cultures that made wizards welcome and part of the economic, social, and political life of the nation. That isn't to say that wizards or magic wouldn't be regulated at all, nor that wizards wouldn't be controlled by the local lords (who might be wizards themselves). In fact, that is saying nearly the opposite. But any culture that was purely magic fearing and magic oppressive just loses.

1) the black market (enter seedy types thieves guilds etc) could very easily to probably ripped off

There will always be a black market. That's not saying anything different than normal.

2) from a "secured location" within the castle grounds, pretty much a forced situation (so he can be controlled/watched)

You don't need to physically secure the wizard, and you certainly wouldn't try to imprison a wizard. What you need to do is economically secure the wizard. What you need is to buy the wizard's loyalty by making yourself indispensable to him. You invite him to be a well paid 'court wizard', the same as you would invite famous artisans, scholars, or warriors to serve in your courts. You grant the wizard stipends, libraries, facilities, servants, and assistants. You promise to protect him from rivals. You lay a nice table for him. But while that is all normal stuff, it doesn't mean that you are cracking down on the hedge wizard outside the gates that is making magically fire protected sail cloth for the merchants, or cheap potions of healing, or whatever he is making. No, what you do is you enter into a big profitable contract with him. You become his best customer. You buy so many shields +1 from him, that nobody else can get on his waiting list.

from outside any patrolled areas, 50 miles from any town, out in the middle of nowhere where they are not monitored, he doesn't pay taxes. This can be a dangerous venture for an adventurer with a pocket full of coin n gems. A couple of spells by wizard and your in some big trouble...and far away from everything so nobody to hear your scream(s)

Which is just more evidence why this would never work. If wizard's were so reluctant to serve you, that they'd be forced to go live in the wilderness and not pay taxes, then you've got something going wrong. Any culture that marginalized wizard's like this, would eventually be conquered by the one that gave wizard's tax breaks and protection.

Your assuming I am having people(s) worship multiple gods and this is not wrong, they can and do. BUT any competition of over-lapping domains, such as 2 gods with war as a domain, they will be unfriendly to outright fighting in this campaign.

But how is that any different than a typical D&D campaign? Of course deities with over-lapping domains are rivals.

There is going to be a little more witch hunting going on, more inquisitors followed by lots of burning at the stake torture and imprisonment. Clerics are seldom seen just wandering about, they are part of a large institution and advocate on behalf of such vigorously.

I have no particular problem with wizards being burned at the stake. It can happen in my campaign as well. But to much of this gets to be ridiculous.

A good example of this would be Terry Pratchett's 4th Tiffany Aching book: "I Shall Wear Midnight". In the book, Tiffany takes on witch panic, influenced by the real world's witch panic. The problem with this is that in the Terry Pratchett's stories, we are never given any reason as to why people might fear witches. It can't be superstitution; witches on the Disqworld are self-evidently real. And Terry Pratchett has in the prior three books, and in the related 'witches' books staring Granny Weatherwax, consistently portrayed witches as heroic clear headed rational do-gooders that are always helping people. So we are given no reason why anyone on the Disqworld would hate or fear witches. Maybe if Pratchett had shown more bad witches misusing their powers to abuse and control people, then there might be reason to sympathize with people fearing them. So sure, if a Wizard goes about casting 'Charm Person' on people, or creating illusions to cheat people out of their money, or summons infernal creatures, or animates grandma, then yes we would very much expect society to burn that person at the stake. And we'd expect there to be laws on the books that made it illegal to cast charm person (except in self-defence), or conjure demons, or raise up zombies and so forth. There are good reasons why people might fear magic and those that wield such powers. But in the long run, the society with the most rational approach to magic would conquer the ones that were irrational about it. If magic has been around for any length of time, it won't come as a surprise to either individuals or society as a whole.

 

[Celebrim]

what I have done is create a campaign where there exists many differences, alterations & restrictions beyond the norm.

game breaking/world altering spells are just gone, having never existed. Most of these spells do not make the game more enjoyable these spells are never needed to further a plot, in fact they would most commonly end a well crafted plot with twists and surprises

While I agree that world breaking spells need to go, there is a fine line between taking away world breaking spells and disempowering players. I have never had a problem keeping a plot going with twists and surprises. I'd have to see a list of spells you consider 'world breaking'. When I think world breaking, teleport doesn't immediately enter my head: fabricate and polymorph any object do.

One reason that many spells are considered 'world breaking' is people try to run the world like the real world without taking into account these spells. But in a world where these spells happened, they wouldn't surprise someone. So, for example, in a world where people regularly investigated violent deaths with 'Speak with the Dead', murderers would know this was going to happen, and they'd take precautions to avoid leaving useful evidence accordingly. There are all sorts of easy precautions a murder can take to render 'Speak with the Dead' all but useless to a would be investigator. In a world where powerful people could be raised from the dead (assuming this was legal, see my prior discussions about the legal implications of raising a dead man back to life), an assassin would know you couldn't dispose of a powerful person simply by sticking a knife in his back, and would plan accordingly. And so forth. Too often the real problem is that the DM is taken by surprise by the PC's spellcasting, as if the PC's were the first spellcasters to ever exist in the world.

a mage with teleport and other long range travel spells are not game breaking in and of themselves.

No, but teleportation circle might be depending on what you are going for.

Sorcerers...

In my campaign, in most areas, if you are proven to be a sorcerer the legal penalty is to be burned at the stake. Sorcerers are considered monsters. They are considered to be inhuman, and are treated accordingly. If you are found to be a sorcerer, you technically have no legal rights. Now, in many areas, this law is enforced only in the breach and people aren't particularly zealous about it. But in theory, if you upset a civic authority, and they knew you were a sorcerer, the law would be entirely on their side to lynch you with a minimal show trial.

Beyond that, sorcerer is not a Tier 1 class. I see no reason to nerf it.

-PC sorcerer will select their own spells up to their CHA mod., so 18 cha = you have 4 spells, no level limit, that you selected. 1 spell per level (just like NPC sorcerer) will be chosen by DM, USUALLY a bloodline influenced decision here, the rest are randomly rolled/selected.

This is greatly nerfing the class. I would not play it under these conditions. In the hands of a good player, Wizard is a more powerful class already. I can understand having bloodline have a more powerful influence over your character, but your restrictions seem rather unfun for the player. Do you have a lot of players?

WIZARDS: While they enjoy the freedom of spell selection everyday, they will need to know what is coming up in the day to select the proper spell list. This is normal...so far, right? Enter my twist! As mentioned previously wizards tend to be un-trusting of others, secretive and are prone to isolation. There are no "magic shops" you can just walk into and buy magics or spells. Their items and tools are very expensive. They need to be guarded and protected.

Have you ever read the 1e DMG? What you describe is not a twist; it's normal.

You see wizards need spell casting materials, they need to be trained, they need a full lab for their work.
Wizards do not trade spells with one another, not in this campaign, evil wizards will look to kill and steal from other wizards, good wizards may work with each other, but often fall victim to the evil wizos disguising themselves.

Normal. Normal. Normal. That's how D&D is supposed to work, by and large, since the 1970's.