Pathfinder 1E D & D and/or Pathfinder, the effects of selective spell exclusions

Starfox

Hero
While I respect every GMs right to organize their own world, I am very much opposed to the entire trend of this thread.

One of the big steps from 2E to 3E was that the world went from the dark ages paradigm to renaissance. Suddenly there was an economic system that included magic. Suddenly the implication was that magic guilds and schools actually had libraries of spells accessible to members. There was a market for spellcasting, with established price norms. No longer did you have to cajole and bribe another caster to let you copy a spell. And I really, really like this development. I have made it a large part of my setting; things used to be retarded and non-functional, and in many places it still is, but all the leading places of the world are moving away from the dark ages of ignorance and superstition.

The dark ages were never half as dark as they were portrayed in DnD, but it is true that the monetary economy of antiquity broke down; money was replaces by a system of allowances and land rents. In such a system, a wizard would work for a lord in return fro protection, housing, and keep. But this really is a lousy way to do things. When the monetary economy reawakened with the renaissance, the benefits were immense. A monetary economy is much more flexible and productive than a feudal system. As was said higher up in the thread; any monetary, magic-allowing society is going to win over a feudal, superstitious society.

Then on to some practical considerations:

What puts messengers out of business is not teleporting magicians, it is planar binding. A lowly lantern archon can teleport 25 lbs of cargo anywhere in the world. What limits such a system is not really the availability of spells, it is the degree of organization in society. A place like Cheilax would most definitely have an infernal post office; it is just too useful not to be, once society is robust enough for such institutions to be stable.

The way I play sorcerers, being a sorcerer is often a sign of nobility. It is the elite of society who confront the supernatural, and it is their progeny who manifest natural magic. While wizards are locked up in their ivory towers doing work for hire, sorcerers engage with the world at large. The majority of fighting arcane spellcasters are likely to be sorcerers. They are also handier for rulers; as they don't naturally form guilds, they are less organized, less likely to have conflicting loyalties.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Celebrim

Legend
What puts messengers out of business is not teleporting magicians, it is planar binding.

Precisely. Planar Binding should be on your list of potentially game world breaking spells; not teleport. Not that I necessarily agree that Lantern Archons can be induced to run the fantasy equivalent of an Amazon delivery service for you, or that you'd necessarily ever have that many 9th+ level spell casters to run such a system, but that you better be prepared for that eventuality once the PC's start trying to organize the world.

And again, I should emphasize that if you banned or nerfed both Planar Binding and Teleport, in general the net result would be no real change in the setting. This is because you almost never see a setting where the spells are put to their full potential on a regular basis and the logic of the setting is built around that idea. Instead, most settings are loosely built as 'the real world' where 'magic is also real' and the implications of 'magic is also real' is almost never well thought out. So the real task is working out what the world would be like if you kept those spells as is; not working out the effects of selectively removing them. The implication of a particular spell is almost never a part of a setting.

The way I play sorcerers, being a sorcerer is often a sign of nobility. It is the elite of society who confront the supernatural, and it is their progeny who manifest natural magic. While wizards are locked up in their ivory towers doing work for hire, sorcerers engage with the world at large. The majority of fighting arcane spellcasters are likely to be sorcerers. They are also handier for rulers; as they don't naturally form guilds, they are less organized, less likely to have conflicting loyalties.

It's certainly reasonable that sorcerous bloodlines could end up being the nobility of a particular world. For example, in the real world, part of the claim of the Merovingian kings of France to the throne was based on having a sea serpent for an ancestor. I kid you not. In the quasi-pagan world they lived in, being able to claim super-natural parentage was seen as a net positive thing that proved the specialness or nobility of your blood, rather than condemned you as a potentially inhuman monster. And there is nothing wrong with having that as a culture or dominate culture in your homebrew world. If it isn't the case, as it isn't in my campaign world, then you need to have some significant historical and cosmological features explaining why almost everyone universally sees having super-natural parentage, even though it might grant some cool superpowers, to be a bad thing. Because if you don't have that, then the nation that exalts these mighty beings rather than tries to oppress them is inevitably going to win out in the long run.
 

Eman Resu

First Post
ok we have gone off course here a bit.

First let me inform you that we as a gaming group have all thrown thoughts and ideas into this campaign, suggestions of alteration. We have voted and discussed these suggestions, tossing some keeping some.

We voted its a dark era, paranoia, suspicion, fear, rumors & jealousy all run rampant. Using Pathfinder map, mostly, there exists few good aligned leaders, most are neutral'ish, most populations are neutralish, and most are human. The age of darkness, the actual meteor strike itself and the goblin wars there after have taken its toll on much. There exists many many ruins, whole kingdoms destroyed in a flash. A few years of demons n devils from the pit has taken its toll on "good aligned" higher leveled peoples.

Spellcasters are witches, Clerics from "other" races/kingdoms/pantheons are at least viewed with suspicion, most are just lumped into the witch category. We all know what most populations want to do with witches...

As a result of the world wound, people sought refugee and safety with Churches/temples. This made these churches/religion very powerful. High priest Clerics range from "influential" to "complete control" over kingdoms. Clerics tend to their faithful while inquisitors investigate reports of potential threats.
 

Eman Resu

First Post
Oh and yes, many rulers have spell caster at their side, or are themselves a caster.
The side kick friendly spellcaster who remains loyal although knowing the temptation to complete power is but 1 charm or domination spell away from being seen thru fruition. LOYALTY, constant and unwavering loyalty, is a rare item. Most will fall to temptation...hence its dark times! Its too easy for spell casters to assume control with the waive of a hand and rule the muggles.

In fact a good portion of the rulers themselves are evil spellcasters, or are secretly controlled by one at thier side. 50/50 arcane to divine. I added this on without players knowledge, this was my contribution to the "dark era" campaign. I felt it fitting that evil spellcasters would feel threatened by other casters, and secretly conspire to further this paranoia.

No such thing as open magic guilds, there are however secret magic guilds.
 


Lost Soul

First Post
I never really saw an issue with teleport. Its a plot device to help the players move through large areas without resorting to detail. Most people point to Lord of the Rings as the reason to not include teleport. D&D has many reasons why teleport is a bad idea such as unfamiliarity of terrain, possible anti-magic fields, special materials in construction to prevent teleportation, etc. I mean look at Star Trek. Teleportation is a plot device, when it is not needed it is not a bid deal. Just create a spell similar to the binding spell that they had in 3e and teleport is not a bid deal.
 

Eman Resu

First Post
Lost soul, teleport is just one of the spells gone in this campaign. So to is any long range travel and long range communications. To tell you the truth I stopped responding to this thread as peoples responses were not addressing the forest but the tree in front of them. I mean really read the responses here, I am asking question and posting what my group wanted to do with this campaign, and people start taking shots at the messenger and/or going off on tangents while never really responding with much more than " well I wouldn't like to play in this game" or "nerfing clerics is stupid" " "I object to this entire threads premise" "this is just absurd"

of course Im paraphrasing here but the underling message was loud and clear....THESE PEOPLE ARE NUTS!!!


I am (re)reading some of the responses here, and yep, WOW! comes to mind.

Just a brief and summarized clarity check here

our group decided to...-

NO MAGIC SHOPS: there is no such thing as a magic shop thats open to the public. If you want to chance going to buy a magical you must disarm yourself and walk into the wizards keep...this of course can lead to problems!! or you must deal with the black market, and again prone to problems. There is always the rogue wizard out in th country, where your all by yourself, what could possible go wrong there...buhahahah. The reasoning is security concern, prejudice, ignorance, control.

posting this got a "well thats just stupid the first kingdom thats excepting of magic will prevail" AGAIN people giving there input & arguing against this decision, but ignoring the fact that these shops do not exist as it was our decision.


religion: the people empower the gods in this campaign, and without the worship of being these deities wither and die (this to drew some sarcasm from posters)

clerics do not travel around willy-nilly, they stay with huge caravans when travel is needed but otherwise they are temple bound. In this campaign clerics are not good adventurers. why? because other religions will find you heretical. Only the most exalted good guys could be tolerant, albeit suspicious! If clerics god has "travel" in domain selection, ok your a wanderer BUT mind your ps n qs!!!

we changed sorcerers a bit: they have to be trained to make magicals, most dont/cant. Sorcerers dont use any material components, and a small list of spells = to their cha mod, they can apply metamagic to with no extended casting time. Sorcerers usually make very good adventurers...another CON is they have a certain amount of spells that are randomly selected. This selection may vary given hereditary or foreign influences. usually in consideration are bloodlines, ancestry, experiences & life path, history, religious and education.

wizards: are locked away as per past posts

in between phone calls at work, oops typed a book!

Eman
 

If the OP is still keeping track of this thread, I'd be interested to know what classes his players ended up playing in this setting.

Even in a "normal" Pathfinder setting our group struggles occasionally as we don't have a cleric to cure things like blindness and disease, and NPC clerics aren't always as handy as you'd like. In this campaign, you might have to play a blind character for a very long time, which wouldn't be much fun.
 

Eman Resu

First Post
you can buy from black market, a known wizards keep or your religions temple, of course the price could be steep. You can find magics eg adventuring. You can make your own, just need to be witty and mindful of the fears and suspicions of others, followed by the torch and pitch fork squads.

as far as classes, we are 3.p & gestalt

currently

paladin / monk unchained / enlightened of lrori
marksmen / soulknife / soulbow / ranger / archer fighter
unchained rogue / psion / elocater
beguiler / prestigious Bard / 1/2 celestial / ranger
archivist / unchained rogue
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
no pc is a wizard, nobody wanted to be locked down to a lab as wizards make horrible travelers and do so as little as possible

This is a dark era where human cities dominate the landscape...
[SNIP]
The definition of heretic is as flexible as it is ambiguous. It could be anybody acting in a way that is merely perceived as going against, undermining, maybe even just questioning the church or state. Any spell-caster, any race that is suspicious or loathed, anybody standing on a soap box, a foreigner, could be somebody who looks funny or strange. The church has a say to outright command over local law enforcement, with the local inquisitor(s) being a very influential position.

I think you would REALLY like Warhammer FRP and the Old World campaign setting. You've basically recreated it almost completely, the only thing missing is rolling randomly for character class and the inclusion of Rat-Catchers and Barber-Surgeons as playable characters.
 

Remove ads

Top