D&D Essentials

Nahat Anoj

First Post
I'm hoping they revise paladins, clerics, rangers, and warlocks to use one primary ability, like all the other classes do. I have my own thoughts one what this "should" be for each class, but I'd be willing to accept pretty much anything as long as it was just one primary ability for each.
 

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Dice4Hire

First Post
I believe there's an important difference:
Once the 3.5 rule books were out, no new 3.0 supplements were published.

'Essentials', however is just a separate product line. 'Standard' D&D products will continue to be published just as if 'Essentials' never happened..

I would personally feel better about this argument if there were some 'standard' 4E products being published inteh fall. Instead it is pure essentials. Yes, I know 2011 will see mroe stnadard 4E stuff, but if you ignore Essentials, you have about 5 months of nothing new.
 

Dice4Hire

First Post
I'm hoping they revise paladins, clerics, rangers, and warlocks to use one primary ability, like all the other classes do. I have my own thoughts one what this "should" be for each class, but I'd be willing to accept pretty much anything as long as it was just one primary ability for each.

Anyone else notice Warlord is the only PHBI class not listed in either of the Heroes products?
 

Jhaelen

First Post
Yes, I know 2011 will see mroe stnadard 4E stuff, but if you ignore Essentials, you have about 5 months of nothing new.
I agree, that will be an unwelcome period of deprivation. Then again, I already passed on Martial Power 2, since I thought books were published too fast.

To get my regular fix, I intend to look into some other rpg systems, I read about on these boards, e.g. Mouseguard.

Anyone else notice Warlord is the only PHBI class not listed in either of the Heroes products?
I didn't. Was this intentional or is it an omission, I wonder?
 

Danzauker

Adventurer
I would personally feel better about this argument if there were some 'standard' 4E products being published inteh fall. Instead it is pure essentials. Yes, I know 2011 will see mroe stnadard 4E stuff, but if you ignore Essentials, you have about 5 months of nothing new.

Actually, I like that.

I'm already too fallen back on the publishing schedule.

Too many books out and too little time (and little money).

I'll use the fall to get back on track. :)
 

MrMyth

First Post
Sounds like you're using the conclusion to argue the premise. A 4e barbarian who has experienced revisions to many of his powers, feats, and magic items--making some illegal and others ineffective--is still a 4e character, but somehow a 3e barbarian who finds the some of his class features changed in 3.5 is a diiffernt character completely? If there's a thrust to that argument, I must confess, I'm missing it. Some 3.5 characters have had to be rebuilt, and some 4e characters have had to be rebuilt. Same deal.

As to saying 3.5 overwrote 3e books, but 4e revisions don't overwrite 4e books, not sure how you could say that either. 4e updates frequently say "replace sentence X and paragraph Y with this text". That's about as overwritey as it gets.

I'm really not sure how to explain, other than the fact that, once 3.5 was released, people playing 3.5 no longer used 3.0 books. The old splat books (Sword and Fist) were no longer usable. Eventually, new splay books (Complete Warrior) came out to replace them.

Despite all current updates for the 4E rules, as well as when Essentials is released, the same characters will still be using every 4E book released thus far.

These really are two completely different situations.

And it's not just character info that's changed. The PHB no longer contains for stuff like skills, conditions, effects, combat. If there's a question about charging, are you better off looking in your PHB, or your rules compendium?

Are you better off checking the latest resource? Probably. Are you playing a different game if you don't? Not at all.

Especially given that, in regards to charging, what they do was more clarification than change. Some people were amazed you could now diagonally charge around monsters - which is how my group has done it from the start, based on the original wording. The change did specify you can use free actions after the charge (which many groups did beforehand, and only mattered in a handful of cases), and there is no longer the requirement to charge to the closest square from which you can attack (which only changes things for characters with reach weapons.)

Honestly, of the actual rules changes? Almost all of them are similarly minute in nature. Is it going to matter to most games that reliable powers refresh when you don't hit with them, rather than when you miss? All those skill changes - all they did was clarify that you could use these skills as part of any movement, not just move actions. Most people worked along those lines via common sense to begin with - I doubt most GMs were going to insist you couldn't jump over a 5' pit while charging.

So, of genuine rules changes? We have the Stealth rules, sure. The 'Hop Down' addition to acrobatics. Some changes to the flying rules, and Aid Another. Most other elements are really just clarifying what is already there.

And yes, we have powers change, and feats. But we don't have sweeping changes to races, classes, weapons. We have some slight clarifications of skills, and more explanation on how Stealth works. We don't have entire skills - Innuendo, Intuit Direction - vanish and get folded into other skills. Battlerager Fighters have had the mechanics of their class feature altered. But we don't have classes changing armor proficiencies, hit dice, skill points, entire lists of available spells. We have powers themselves that work differently, but not on the level of the 3.5 changes, where some spells vanished entirely, others got completely revamped, changes in names, schools, spell level... Items have been changed, but not, say, the fundamental rules for the prices of items. Some elements of monster design have been updated - such as, for solos, reducing hp to ~80%, and giving them bigger damage when bloodied. But not, say, the fundamental rules of monster design, feats, skills, hit dice, sizes... We've seen clarification on how resistances worked. We haven't had Damage Reduction completely changed.

I mean, I felt that D&D 3.5 was indeed an improvement over 3.0. I never had an issue with the change. But I don't see how you can compare it to the current situation. Many characters in the change had to be completely rebuilt.

But of all the changes and updates that have happened in 4E? How many have actually required rebuilding a character? Sure, many might feel there character isn't as effective/overpowered as before, and desire to give them an overhaul. In a handful of cases, the changes are enough that a feat actually is no longer useful, or the character no longer qualifies for it. So they need to change, say, one feat. Or one power. In most cases, being able to do so entirely through the built-in retraining system.

How many ordinary characters have had to actually rebuild based on changes? The only times I regularly see it happening are with builds out of char-op. And many times, no rebuild is required.

Claiming this is the exact same thing as the changeover from 3.0 to 3.5... yeah, I absolutely cannot agree. Those changes were simply more significant, more universal, and more fundamental than having a small portion of feats and powers work slightly differently than printed.
 

Felon

First Post
I'm really not sure how to explain, other than the fact that, once 3.5 was released, people playing 3.5 no longer used 3.0 books. The old splat books (Sword and Fist) were no longer usable. Eventually, new splay books (Complete Warrior) came out to replace them.

Despite all current updates for the 4E rules, as well as when Essentials is released, the same characters will still be using every 4E book released thus far.

These really are two completely different situations.
You have not demonstrated that they are two completely different situations. You hae only demonstrated that the current method for getting folks to buy new rulebooks is more surreptitious.

You claim that people can still use their 4e books, but it's only if they're willing to accept that what they're using is no longer up-to-date--or, I suppose, if they have a bunch of post-its taped over all of the stuff that's supposed to be overwritten by new rules. No, you cannot trust your PHB anymore. It's swiss-cheesed.

In many cases, what you do now to have the latest rules is print out a pile of updates and consult them first before going to the book in question. You could actually do this with 3.5, since they provided a free revision guide. But nobody did because everyone considered it an absurd alternative. Buying the new books became the thing to do.

And don't kid yourself, we'll see a lot of that happen when the option is available for 4e. The ony game-changer is the Character Builder, which allows people to at least have an up-to-date character.

Claiming this is the exact same thing as the changeover from 3.0 to 3.5... yeah, I absolutely cannot agree. Those changes were simply more significant, more universal, and more fundamental than having a small portion of feats and powers work slightly differently than printed.
You claim that 3.5's changes to classes made 3.0 books unusable, yet you also claim that 4e's revisions to powers aren't a big deal. This means that you somehow have mentally divorced powers from classes. That center does not hold.

To refer the number of feats and powers that have changed as a "small portion" is also bizarre. Open the collected rules update and count the numbe rof powers changed. Pretty vast.
 

MrMyth

First Post
You have not demonstrated that they are two completely different situations. You hae only demonstrated that the current method for getting folks to buy new rulebooks is more surreptitious.

Nothing I mentioned had anything to do with buying new rulebooks...

You claim that people can still use their 4e books, but it's only if they're willing to accept that what they're using is no longer up-to-date--or, I suppose, if they have a bunch of post-its taped over all of the stuff that's supposed to be overwritten by new rules. No, you cannot trust your PHB anymore. It's swiss-cheesed. [/quote]

The PHB is the book with the most updates and errata, and probably around 96% of the book is still completely current. Yes, you can still use it. No, it is not obselete.

The 3.0 PHB contained entire classes that had undercome major changes. Spells changed named, levels, and more. Look, I just listed a whole slew of changes in my last post, and how they were more significant than changing a handful of powers in 4E - and you completely dismissed that. Please, just go through there, and explain to me how those changes I listed are just as significant as some of the updates in 4E. Handwaving it away and declaring it identical to the current situation is nonsense.


You claim that 3.5's changes to classes made 3.0 books unusable, yet you also claim that 4e's revisions to powers aren't a big deal. This means that you somehow have mentally divorced powers from classes. That center does not hold.

Characters going from 3.0 to 3.5 could have a whole slew of things change, from equipment to hitpoints to skills to armor proficiences. 4E characters have occasionally had one or two powers change. Entire rebuilds are not needed or required. Even more so, the powers themselves are typically isolated, and don't result in anything more than adjusting to the new power or retraining it to a new one if you don't like it anymore.

Or even just ignoring it and continuing on - if someone using the errata, and someone not using it, sit down at the same table, they will still be playing the same game. Try running a table that is half 3.0 and half 3.5 - it is doable, but the differences are much more significant, and much more apparent.

To refer the number of feats and powers that have changed as a "small portion" is also bizarre. Open the collected rules update and count the numbe rof powers changed. Pretty vast.

Half of one percent of all feats have had errata. One third of one percent of all powers have had errata.

And I would guess that at least half of those are simply correcting typos or clarifying how they work.

Seriously, not that vast!
 

Taed

First Post
Is D&D Essentials really going to be that different from the current D&D Starter Set? From my reading, it seems like a reissue of the Starter Set, perhaps with some more 4e-ish rules.

I really liked the two Starter Sets prior to the current one. In addition to the expected mini-rules, characters, adventure, and dice, they both came with about 15 miniatures each (4 PCs, skeletons, orcs, kobolds, a dragon, etc.) and nice dungeon tiles. The current Starter Set only comes with tokens / markers. In addition, the two prior Starter Sets had very little overlap of the miniatures and completely different dungeon tiles, so I bought both sets on eBay for about $10 each -- a cheap way to get some miniatures and tiles.
 

jbear

First Post
Well, I'm not sure what changes will come with the Essentials Collection, (and I'm far from worried about it... very, very far), but one that I'm hoping for, fingers crossed, please, please, pretty please, dog-nabit praying for, is the introduction of the 3 Stat racial modifiers for PHB and PHB2 races that were introduced in PHB3.

And if so what might they be...?
Tieflings with +2 Int and either +2 CON or CHA?
Half-Elves with +2 Cha and either +2 Wis or Con?
The list goes on...

If this is the case, does it raise an issue for humans? With this increased flexibilty that races gain when allocating their racial bonus, what does the human gain?
Is something like +2 Con and +2 in the ability of your choice too strong or only fair? Or is the human going to be the only one not coming to the party (along side the Drow and the Warforged who aren't likely to make it into the Essentials Line). That's not to say that won't be swiftly dealt to with a Dragon Article or two.

So I await their arrival with quiet, curious expectation and not a fragment of concern.
 

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