D&D Essentials

[UngeheuerLich]

When they completely re-write a class from the ground up, then I could see it being a 4.5. It's not even close to that level yet.

Changing healing word so it only works on some things isn't even close to the overhaul of the Ranger class which is what 3.5 changes were about.

I just hope we see new printings of the normal books... to have it consistent with essential line...

If you call it 4.5 doesn´t matter... You are right that there are no MAJOR RULES updates like in the transition of 3.0 to 3.5, but there are several classes with updated at wills etc. Skill challenges are revised a lot etc.

So a new printing is more than justified... but it is definitely no revamp, just an updated version of a solid game... backwards compatibility 100%

 

[Omertalvendetta]

I just hope we see new printings of the normal books... to have it consistent with essential line...

If you call it 4.5 doesn´t matter... You are right that there are no MAJOR RULES updates like in the transition of 3.0 to 3.5, but there are several classes with updated at wills etc. Skill challenges are revised a lot etc.

So a new printing is more than justified... but it is definitely no revamp, just an updated version of a solid game... backwards compatibility 100%

Awesome... this at least makes me feel a little bit better...

 

[Jhaelen]

it simply smells like a 4.0 revamp = 4.5...

I have no idea what you are smelling but if you already play D&D 4e, you can safely ignore the existence of the Essentials products. They won't interfere with your game in any way.

They exist simply to provide an easier, more streamlined entry point into the game incorporating changes that result from a better understanding of the designers what works well and what doesn't.

 

[fuzzlewump]

I have no idea what you are smelling but if you already play D&D 4e, you can safely ignore the existence of the Essentials products. They won't interfere with your game in any way.

They exist simply to provide an easier, more streamlined entry point into the game incorporating changes that result from a better understanding of the designers what works well and what doesn't.

Just like those playing 3.0 don't let 3.5 interfere with their game.

I'm not taking a stance on whether Essentials is 4.5 or not (pointless semantic argument) but you seem to imply that ability to ignore means that it's not a '0.5' gap but I'm not sure that's the case.

EDIT: If I have it down correctly, the D&D Essentials isn't different rules (Basic vs. Advanced D&D, 3.0 vs. 3.5) it's the same rules as the most recent errata to the books. If you're looking at it as a jump from non-errated 4.0 PHB to D&D Essentials then it will look more major, but it's just following the course of the game over time.

 

[Felon]

If you call it 4.5 doesn´t matter... You are right that there are no MAJOR RULES updates like in the transition of 3.0 to 3.5, but there are several classes with updated at wills etc. Skill challenges are revised a lot etc.

Sorry, can you elaborate? Give me an example of one of 3.5's "magor rules" changes that dwarf the changes we've seen in 4e? Because 4e has featured significant "updates" to every element of the game--combat, skills, powers, feats, magic items.

 

[AllisterH]

Sorry, can you elaborate? Give me an example of one of 3.5's "magor rules" changes that dwarf the changes we've seen in 4e? Because 4e has featured significant "updates" to every element of the game--combat, skills, powers, feats, magic items.

Rewrite of a class = major update

Rewrite of skill, feat, magic item or power = minor update.

That I think is the defining line between whether or not I personally consider it a "new version".

For example, I don't consider the changes to specific spells (e.g Haste) in 3.5 an example of "3.5 is an update".

However, in contrast, the update in Player's Options: Spells & Magic which didn't actually change the spells but simply changed their placement in the sphere system of 2e, I do consider a "revision" and an indication that PO was 2.5 so to speak.

 

[Jhaelen]

Just like those playing 3.0 don't let 3.5 interfere with their game.

I believe there's an important difference:
Once the 3.5 rule books were out, no new 3.0 supplements were published.

'Essentials', however is just a separate product line. 'Standard' D&D products will continue to be published just as if 'Essentials' never happened.

Now granted, I don't actually know if I'm correct about this, but I assumed that if 'Essentials' actually changed anything about the game rules, that change would be limited to 'Essentials' products meaning the 'Standard' D&D products are completely unaffected.

If there aren't any rule changes, i.e. if 'Essentials' is only 'Standard' + the Rules Updates we're receiving every month for free, anyway, there's no impact on 'Standard' D&D, either.

 

[Felon]

Rewrite of a class = major update

Rewrite of skill, feat, magic item or power = minor update.

Well, 4e classes now revolve around powers, and there have been sweeping changes to a vast number of powers. Ergo, major updates. People have found themselves needing to rebuild characters. Sometimes more than once. Sometimes scrapping them altogether. That's about as major as it gets.

 

[MrMyth]

Sorry, can you elaborate? Give me an example of one of 3.5's "magor rules" changes that dwarf the changes we've seen in 4e? Because 4e has featured significant "updates" to every element of the game--combat, skills, powers, feats, magic items.

The changes from 3.0 to 3.5 largely overwrote the works of 3.0, such that those playing 3.5 no longer used the 3.0 core books or splat books.

D&D Essentials will not do this. And none of the existing 'updates' to the game have rendered unusable any of the prior material. There have been individual powers and class elements that have changed, but the character - both before and after any rebuilds - remained a 4E character, and drew from the same pool of resources and options. And the vast majority of the updates have not resulted in sweeping rebuilds except for a very small handful of cases... or by those who were after very specific power combinations and felt the need to rebuild when those gamebreaking elements were fixed.

 

[Felon]

The changes from 3.0 to 3.5 largely overwrote the works of 3.0, such that those playing 3.5 no longer used the 3.0 core books or splat books.

D&D Essentials will not do this. And none of the existing 'updates' to the game have rendered unusable any of the prior material. There have been individual powers and class elements that have changed, but the character - both before and after any rebuilds - remained a 4E character, and drew from the same pool of resources and options. And the vast majority of the updates have not resulted in sweeping rebuilds except for a very small handful of cases... or by those who were after very specific power combinations and felt the need to rebuild when those gamebreaking elements were fixed.

Sounds like you're using the conclusion to argue the premise. A 4e barbarian who has experienced revisions to many of his powers, feats, and magic items--making some illegal and others ineffective--is still a 4e character, but somehow a 3e barbarian who finds the some of his class features changed in 3.5 is a diiffernt character completely? If there's a thrust to that argument, I must confess, I'm missing it. Some 3.5 characters have had to be rebuilt, and some 4e characters have had to be rebuilt. Same deal.

As to saying 3.5 overwrote 3e books, but 4e revisions don't overwrite 4e books, not sure how you could say that either. 4e updates frequently say "replace sentence X and paragraph Y with this text". That's about as overwritey as it gets.

If you want to play 3.0 characters in a 3.5 adventure using monsters from a 3.5 book, that's only going to be an issue in a small handful of cases--an amount which you're willing to allow for with 4e updates. Conversely, many update-aware 4e players have indeed come to the conclusion that they can't trust what they look up in print. I know nobody in my group trusts the PHB to build a character. CB or bust.

And it's not just character info that's changed. The PHB no longer contains for stuff like skills, conditions, effects, combat. If there's a question about charging, are you better off looking in your PHB, or your rules compendium?