D&D 4E D&D Fluff Wars: 4e vs 5e

[cbwjm]

I think for a lot of people, primarily those that homebrew, they have an established cosmology for their campaign world where they set all of their campaigns. I can understand if they wouldn't want to change anything, however I also don't think that the default cosmology changing is that big a deal.

For me, personally, all that would mean would be using the new ruleset with my old campaign while saying "screw the world axis". I'm sure that there have been plenty of people who have run games when the wheel was around that instead used their own cosmology. Default cosmology isn't really that major in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Parmandur]

I think for a lot of people, primarily those that homebrew, they have an established cosmology for their campaign world where they set all of their campaigns. I can understand if they wouldn't want to change anything, however I also don't think that the default cosmology changing is that big a deal.

For me, personally, all that would mean would be using the new ruleset with my old campaign while saying "screw the world axis". I'm sure that there have been plenty of people who have run games when the wheel was around that instead used their own cosmology. Default cosmology isn't really that major in the grand scheme of things.

3.x really assumed a DM would probably make their own cosmology from scratch (lots of advice on that in the MotP...advice they followed themselves with the World Axis!).

The heated emotion of some folks reaction did, indeed, come down to "screw the World Axis, I'll just continue using my old books!" If the whole Nerath scene had been introduced as a new setting, ala Eberron (which had a unique cosmology, whose technological and biological uniqueness have become the Great Wheels own), probably wouldn't have had much of a negative reaction. Marketing fail, more than anything.

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[TwoSix]

I always find this an interesting point about the default 4e setting, it's like half of it's advocates see it as a generic lightly sketched setting that is easy to replace and modify while the other half see it as a fully fleshed out setting with ample details and history... I don't remember the 4e setting well enough to go with either interpretation but i find the seemingly polar positions on it interesting, I may pull out my 4e books to re-read it again.

Well, it's kind of both. It does have a fair amount of cultural touchstones for its setting, and lots of mythological and cosmological depth. But it has almost nothing on an actual physical geography or recent events (outside of the fall of Nerath, which is history presented as near mythology). There's no detailed map outside the Nentir Vale (and a map from a board game.) So if you want something like the FRCS, it's pretty lacking.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The 4e books didn't set out to present a "generic" setting.

IIRC/FWIW, WotC, said that's what they were doing...

The 4e PHB and MM are full of planes, gods, history, baleful stars, and other non-generic setting elements.

...not necessarily what they did.

The closest I can see to reconciling the basic contradiction is that the proper-noun elements they threw in were mostly either in the over-arching cosmology (shared to a degree by all settings, so not setting-specific) or in the past, where they could be inserted into the litany of fallen empires in a variety of settings.
But, really, we could go crazy trying to reconcile everything WotC has said with everything they end up doing. ;|

Whatever the intent, fans treated the Nentir Vale like it was part of an official setting, even though the rest of that implied setting, itself - it's geography, cultures, current events and so forth - was barely hinted at.

 

[QuietBrowser]

Sigil is still The Cage, and the City of Doors. Best thing about it for the World Axis was that it allowed instant access to anywhere if you knew what you were doing. Need to find Asmodeus secret toilet paper stash? There's probably a portal in Sigil that takes you right to his fiendish supply closet.

Yes, that's actually something I should have been clearer on; the Astral Sea makes it easier to get between Dominions as a whole than getting between the various Outer Planes was in the Great Wheel. However, Sigil in the World Axis is still the ultimate portal nexus; if you want to shift cargo between, say, the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos, or the Feywild and the Shadowfell, it's much easier to go to Sigil first than to try and leap directly between the two.

Plus, as you said, Sigil's portals allow for much greater control over where you end up when planewalking, as well as speed in getting around, whereas the "sail directly there" is slower and less accurate.

Like, sailing the Astral Sea is equivalent to taking a boat from North America to China. Using Sigil is like taking a flight from New York to Beijing.

 

[Beleriphon]

YLike, sailing the Astral Sea is equivalent to taking a boat from North America to China. Using Sigil is like taking a flight from New York to Beijing.

All very true, and if you really know what you're up to its like having Mr Scott use the transporter.

 

[pemerton]

I always find this an interesting point about the default 4e setting, it's like half of it's advocates see it as a generic lightly sketched setting that is easy to replace and modify while the other half see it as a fully fleshed out setting with ample details and history

I don't see what the contrast is. It's lightly sketched. It's not generic (cf, say, 3E or 2nd ed AD&D) - it has many proper names, a history, a cosmology, etc. It's easy to replace and modify. There is no reason in the abstract why these things can't all be true; and I think they are.

IIRC/FWIW, WotC, said that's what they were doing... ...not necessarily what they did.

They told us what they were doing in Wizards Presents: Worlds & Monsters. That has several pages laying out the setting conceits ("points of light"); it explains why they have a default pantheon (without one, how do they write modules with clerics or draw pictures/sculpt minis with holy symbols?); it outlines the history (Dawn War, empires, fall of Nerath under gnoll attack, etc).

They delivered exactly what they promised!

The closest I can see to reconciling the basic contradiction is that the proper-noun elements they threw in were mostly either in the over-arching cosmology (shared to a degree by all settings, so not setting-specific) or in the past, where they could be inserted into the litany of fallen empires in a variety of settings.

<snip>

Whatever the intent, fans treated the Nentir Vale like it was part of an official setting

I agree with [MENTION=6780330]Parmandur[/MENTION] - the proper names, implied history etc are similar to the hints of GH in the artefact section of Gygax's DMG.

The Nentir Vale - as in, the final chapter of the DMG - is a separate thing, in that one can completely ignore that (I didn't read it until a couple of years after starting my 4e campaign) yet use the default cosmology. In my case, I use the map/geography in the B/X module Night's Dark Terror for the details of the setting.

 

[Parmandur]

I don't see what the contrast is. It's lightly sketched. It's not generic (cf, say, 3E or 2nd ed AD&D) - it has many proper names, a history, a cosmology, etc. It's easy to replace and modify. There is no reason in the abstract why these things can't all be true; and I think they are.

They told us what they were doing in Wizards Presents: Worlds & Monsters. That has several pages laying out the setting conceits ("points of light"); it explains why they have a default pantheon (without one, how do they write modules with clerics or draw pictures/sculpt minis with holy symbols?); it outlines the history (Dawn War, empires, fall of Nerath under gnoll attack, etc).

They delivered exactly what they promised!

I agree with [MENTION=6780330]Parmandur[/MENTION] - the proper names, implied history etc are similar to the hints of GH in the artefact section of Gygax's DMG.

The Nentir Vale - as in, the final chapter of the DMG - is a separate thing, in that one can completely ignore that (I didn't read it until a couple of years after starting my 4e campaign) yet use the default cosmology. In my case, I use the map/geography in the B/X module Night's Dark Terror for the details of the setting.

And for what they were trying to do, I think they did a fine job; from a business perspective, the same approach with, say, Greyhawk might have gone over better with John Q. Gamer...

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[tuxgeo]

No, many gods clearly belong to other alignments that they are listed;. . .

I don't recall the listings, which ones did you think were off?

Don't have the book right here, but I remember: Raven Queen (should be N), Sehannine (clearly CN), Tiamat (in 4e is NE), Zehir (perfectly NE instead of CE)... The list goes on.

​

I liked that 4E introduced the "Unaligned" "alignment," because that gave us a "None of the above" choice; but I disliked the removal of "Neutral," "Neutral Good," "Neutral Evil," "Lawful Evil," and "Chaotic Good." I'm glad 5E has reversed that situation, which I viewed as being an error.

IMHO, both Corellon and Sehanine should always be CG: they started as members of the Elven pantheon, and that whole pantheon was (originally) universally Chaotic, with individuals being either CG or CN.
I agree the Raven Queen should be N, not Unaligned as 4E had her.

The text list I have for the 4E gods shows:
Lawful Good: Bahamut, Moradin;
Good: Avandra, Pelor;
UNALIGNED: Corellon, Erathis, Ioun, Kord, Melora, Sehanine, and the Raven Queen (and probably that old Partridge in a Pear Tree, to boot).

(Of the Evil gods: Gruumsh, Lolth, Tharizdun CE, the rest E.)

 

[tuxgeo]

That's classic setup of earth/air/water fire elementals.

And anyone who uses the term vanilla in a negative connotation clearly doesn't understand vanilla.
What tops most polls of popular ice cream flavor? Vanilla.
What scent is usually near the top or at the top of lists of sexy smells? Vanilla.
Vanilla is foundational.
Vanilla is sexy sophistication.
Vanilla effing rocks.

Fun horticultural fact: In growing regions where V. planifolia is not native, the specific insects that pollinate that species are not present, so growers have to (or at least used to have to) hand-pollinate the flowers. They would select and pollinate only the flowers pointing straight downward, so the resulting seed-pods would grow nice and straight, so the growers could pack the dried seed pods more compactly for shipping as a spice.

(Vanilla pollen is not wind-borne, but must be carried from flower to flower by active agents such as insects.)