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D&D 4E D&D Fluff Wars: 4e vs 5e

QuietBrowser

First Post


I liked that 4E introduced the "Unaligned" "alignment," because that gave us a "None of the above" choice; but I disliked the removal of "Neutral," "Neutral Good," "Neutral Evil," "Lawful Evil," and "Chaotic Good." I'm glad 5E has reversed that situation, which I viewed as being an error.

IMHO, both Corellon and Sehanine should always be CG: they started as members of the Elven pantheon, and that whole pantheon was (originally) universally Chaotic, with individuals being either CG or CN.
I agree the Raven Queen should be N, not Unaligned as 4E had her.

The text list I have for the 4E gods shows:
Lawful Good: Bahamut, Moradin;
Good: Avandra, Pelor;
UNALIGNED: Corellon, Erathis, Ioun, Kord, Melora, Sehanine, and the Raven Queen (and probably that old Partridge in a Pear Tree, to boot).

(Of the Evil gods: Gruumsh, Lolth, Tharizdun CE, the rest E.)

Eh, honestly, I agreed with the alignment carve-down in 4th edition. Unless you really, really got fixated on the Law vs. Chaos divide, there was never really that much difference between Neutral Good and Chaotic Good, or Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil for that matter. Lawful Good and Good had strong seperations, and same with Evil vs. Chaotic Evil, and I think the real issue was that 4e used those familiar titles for the specific flavors, which made people complain that Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil were somehow "super-good/evil".

As for True Neutral... like, seriously, what'd be the point? It's gone through two seperate definitions in three editions, from "I keep the balance between Law, Chaos, Good and Evil going in any one direction" (the original definition, and in practice often the stupidest: see Mordenkainen and the Rilmani) to "I don't give a damn about good, evil, law OR chaos!".

Both of these definitions are quite amply covered by being Unaligned. One implies you consider yourself above or beyond such definitions as Good or Evil, the other implies you just don't give a damn. Either way, you're not aligned to any one force. You're unaligned. So, what possible purpose could Neutral actually serve?
 

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Imaro

Legend
Eh, honestly, I agreed with the alignment carve-down in 4th edition. Unless you really, really got fixated on the Law vs. Chaos divide, there was never really that much difference between Neutral Good and Chaotic Good, or Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil for that matter. Lawful Good and Good had strong seperations, and same with Evil vs. Chaotic Evil, and I think the real issue was that 4e used those familiar titles for the specific flavors, which made people complain that Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil were somehow "super-good/evil".

Well the problem is some of us, in our specific campaigns, do give just as much or more weight to the sword and sorcery-esque Law vs. Chaos struggle as the high/classical fantasy struggle of good and evil (Call it "fixation" if you want but that seems to imply that you have a similar fixation on the good vs. evil struggle... not sure how one is better than the other.) .

The fact that you don't choose to emphasize or make use of said conflict doesn't mean others don't. I came up on a healthy dose of Moorcock so many of my homebrews have Chaos vs. Law as the central conflict while good and evil are secondary more spiritual concerns. The issue wasn't the naming conventions it was the narrowing of the options as opposed to leaving them open and letting specific groups decide what cosmological forces/conflicts they wanted to explore.

As for True Neutral... like, seriously, what'd be the point? It's gone through two seperate definitions in three editions, from "I keep the balance between Law, Chaos, Good and Evil going in any one direction" (the original definition, and in practice often the stupidest: see Mordenkainen and the Rilmani) to "I don't give a damn about good, evil, law OR chaos!".

Both of these definitions are quite amply covered by being Unaligned. One implies you consider yourself above or beyond such definitions as Good or Evil, the other implies you just don't give a damn. Either way, you're not aligned to any one force. You're unaligned. So, what possible purpose could Neutral actually serve?

I don't get how "I'm unconcerned or above these cosmological forces" equates to "I strive for a balance between these cosmological forces"... IMO those are two different sets of belief systems.

Furthermore not sure a follower of the balance is the "stupidest"... yes if you're trying to balance one act for another it is silly but IMO that's a misunderstanding of what it means to keep the forces in balance. The source material was based along the lines of protagonists not letting either force get an overwhelming foothold on their world and thus push your plane spiraling into unbridled chaos or stagnant law.
 

Aldarc

Legend
The fact that you don't choose to emphasize or make use of said conflict doesn't mean others don't. I came up on a healthy dose of Moorcock so many of my homebrews have Chaos vs. Law as the central conflict while good and evil are secondary more spiritual concerns. The issue wasn't the naming conventions it was the narrowing of the options as opposed to leaving them open and letting specific groups decide what cosmological forces/conflicts they wanted to explore.
I agree with you that Law vs. Chaos is a compelling theme in D&D - it is one that I personally enjoy for my own campaigns - but I can also see why WotC chose to minimize it in favor of Good vs. Evil. In the legacy of D&D and fantasy literature, the Chaos/Order is undeniably influential, but I would argue that Chaos/Order conflict no longer carries the same influence in the popular imagination of fantasy media. Big splash epics such as the works of Middle Earth, Chronicles of Narnia, Harry Potter, and Wheel of Time tend to revolve around the themes of Good vs. Evil. (The science-fantasy epic Star Wars also follows along similar ideas, at least in the popular conception of the story.) I should probably also include World of Warcraft here too. I'm including it not because of the whole "4E is WoW" nonsense, but simply because it is a fantasy series that made a tremendous degree of mainstream success, albeit in another medium. Other popular fantasy epics, such as Game of Thrones (ASoIaF) typically focus on "gritty" political intrigue. The moral ambiguity of most major, contemporaneous fantasy tends to circulate on human agents with complex mutually-exclusive agendas rather than concerns regarding diametrically-opposed cosmological forces, particularly on the Chaos/Order axis. This all not to say that you don't have a point - because you definitely do - but, rather, that mainstream fantasy has drifted away from D&D's sword & sorcery fantasy roots and its cosmological concern for Order vs. Chaos.
 
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Imaro

Legend
I agree with you that Law vs. Chaos is a compelling theme in D&D - it is one that I personally enjoy for my own campaigns - but I can also see why WotC chose to minimize it in favor of Good vs. Evil. In the legacy of D&D and fantasy literature, the Chaos/Order is undeniably influential, but I would argue that Chaos/Order conflict no longer carries the same influence in the popular imagination of fantasy media. Big splash epics such as the works of Middle Earth, Chronicles of Narnia, Harry Potter, and Wheel of Time tend to revolve around the themes of Good vs. Evil. (The science-fantasy epic Star Wars also follows along similar ideas, at least in the popular conception of the story.) I should probably also include World of Warcraft here too. I'm including it not because of the whole "4E is WoW" nonsense, but simply because it is a fantasy series that made a tremendous degree of mainstream success, albeit in another medium. Other popular fantasy epics, such as Game of Thrones (ASoIaF) typically focus on "gritty" political intrigue. The moral ambiguity of most major, contemporaneous fantasy tends to circulate on human agents with complex mutually-exclusive agendas rather than concerns regarding diametrically-opposed cosmological forces, particularly on the Chaos/Order axis. This all not to say that you don't have a point - because you definitely do - but, rather, that mainstream fantasy has drifted away from D&D's sword & sorcery fantasy roots and its cosmological concern for Order vs. Chaos.

No argument here about mainstream fantasy (though I would argue that GoT definitely has strong themes of Chaos vs Law when examined at a high level, now admittedly they are much more subtle than typical D&D fare but I find that with most things in D&D).

Now I do find it baffling why 4e didn't just narrow it to good, evil and unaligned since leaving in remnants of Law and Chaos attached to good and evil respectively isn't really true to any source and heavily prejudices what those cosmological forces represent. It's basically making Law equivalent to good and Chaos equivalent to evil (a simplistic and incorrect view at best which really mudies the waters for those who want their major cosmological conflict to be based around those forces)... or better yet just eliminate alignment all together and let DM's decide on their own cosmological forces in game. I could have got behind them saying hey we want the default to be games of good and evil not chaos and law but instead they did a half-hearted removal which in my opinion kind of missed the point on both fronts.
 

No argument here about mainstream fantasy (though I would argue that GoT definitely has strong themes of Chaos vs Law when examined at a high level, now admittedly they are much more subtle than typical D&D fare but I find that with most things in D&D).

Now I do find it baffling why 4e didn't just narrow it to good, evil and unaligned since leaving in remnants of Law and Chaos attached to good and evil respectively isn't really true to any source and heavily prejudices what those cosmological forces represent. It's basically making Law equivalent to good and Chaos equivalent to evil (a simplistic and incorrect view at best which really mudies the waters for those who want their major cosmological conflict to be based around those forces)... or better yet just eliminate alignment all together and let DM's decide on their own cosmological forces in game. I could have got behind them saying hey we want the default to be games of good and evil not chaos and law but instead they did a half-hearted removal which in my opinion kind of missed the point on both fronts.

I think they were slowly trying to move away from law vs. chaos/good vs. evil towards a divine vs. nature vs. elemental vs. Far Realm (and possibly vs. shadow vs. fey), but weren't ready to "cut the apron strings" at release time. They may have been worried that making power sources conflict being too central (instead of background) would mean people would think you couldn't have, say, a divine powered PC on the same team as nature powered one, because "Team Divine" hates "Team Nature" (and vice versa).
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
some of us, in our specific campaigns, do give just as much or more weight to the sword and sorcery-esque Law vs. Chaos struggle as the high/classical fantasy struggle of good and evil ... I came up on a healthy dose of Moorcock so many of my homebrews have Chaos vs. Law
I'm right there with you. :) And, y'know, 0e was just Law v Chaos, too.

You could still go that way in 4e, though, Lawful Good (just generally refer to it IC as LAW) vs Chaotic Evil (IC: CHAOS). Demons &c are the enemy, Devils are natural, if perilous, allies. 'Good' & 'Unaligned' elves &c who chafe against the organization and responsibilities of Law are part of the problem of Chaos.

You could even take it the other direction, couching it as Freedom vs Oppression instead of Law/Chaos: the oppression by some power structure (an alignment-Evil Empire, even) or calcifying force of supernatural Order (Unaligned) is the main foe, and if loosing demons on the world helps weaken them, it's worth it. Too bad those Lawful Good paladins &c are duped into defending the evil, they're just collateral damage.

Now I do find it baffling why 4e didn't just narrow it to good, evil and unaligned
Or just (Moorcockian) Law & Chaos. Or choose one or the other for your campaign's 'conflict theme.' Right?

But...

I think they were slowly trying to move away from law vs. chaos/good vs. evil towards a divine vs. nature vs. elemental vs. Far Realm (and possibly vs. shadow vs. fey), but weren't ready to "cut the apron strings" at release time.
I doubt it was that. 4e was still D&D, and as many mechanical sacred cows as it slaughtered and as much cannon that it re-imagined, it was still carrying massive quantities of D&D baggage.

What happened with alignment seems obvious: They concluded - maybe from surveys, focus groups, Contact Outer Planes, or other means - that people (potential new players, I'd assume) were confused by certain alignments, especially the seemingly-contradictory-to-some Lawful Evil ("b- but, laws are good!") & Chaotic Good ("b- but, chaos is bad!"), and also, clearly, by the neutral-component alignments - perhaps even simply by the large number of alignments. So, they simplified the alignments, as with so many other aspects of the game (or 'dumbed down' as the first cohort of edition warriors tried, unsuccessfully, to paint it - ultimately, going for the opposite: 'too complex').

Five alignments, 4 of them fairly intuitive and B&W, with 'unaligned' as the catch-all for any more-complex, shades-of-grey or merely different motivations.

From the descriptions, CG & NG were clearly folded into Good; LE & NE into Evil; and LN, CN, TN, and the ever-popular 'screw this alignment BS' into 'Unaligned.'


They may have been worried that making power sources conflict being too central (instead of background) would mean people would think you couldn't have, say, a divine powered PC on the same team as nature powered one, because "Team Divine" hates "Team Nature" (and vice versa).
Yeah, that would've been a serious spanner in the works. IMHO, that's why they came up with the Primal Spirits instead of making Druids &c 'Primordial Source,' which would have fit very well, thematically, and played to the legendary sweep of the Dawn War, and even indirectly evoked the historical Druid.
 
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QuietBrowser

First Post
Well the problem is some of us, in our specific campaigns, do give just as much or more weight to the sword and sorcery-esque Law vs. Chaos struggle as the high/classical fantasy struggle of good and evil (Call it "fixation" if you want but that seems to imply that you have a similar fixation on the good vs. evil struggle... not sure how one is better than the other.) .

An admittedly poor choice of words on my part. What I meant is that unless you really read the descriptions of the alignments and memorize them, the Neutral/Chaotic Good divide and the Lawful/Neutral Evil divide is often unintuitive and boils down to fiddly little details that are very hard to discern or even care about for the majority of players. In comparison, Lawful Good, Chaotic Evil, and the Morally Neutral Trinity (Lawful/True/Chaotic Neutral) all have fairly strong, defining attributes that make them instantly recognizable.

Seriously, I have yet to see a writeup for Chaotic Good that doesn't amount to, in the end, "Neutral Good but more suspicious of the law" or "Kindhearted/Heroic Chaotic Neutral". Likewise, I have yet to see a writeup for Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil that makes the difference sound at all meaningful from each other, in comparison to simply not being "I wanna watch the world BURN!" for Chaotic Evil.

The fact that you don't choose to emphasize or make use of said conflict doesn't mean others don't. I came up on a healthy dose of Moorcock so many of my homebrews have Chaos vs. Law as the central conflict while good and evil are secondary more spiritual concerns. The issue wasn't the naming conventions it was the narrowing of the options as opposed to leaving them open and letting specific groups decide what cosmological forces/conflicts they wanted to explore.
Congratulations. Unfortunately, you cannot take your experiences as the norm. Despite his influence in Warhammer, in Warhammer 40000, and in Dungeons & Dragons, in the modern world, Moorcock is practically unknown except to a small band of devoted fantasy fans, and his themes are pretty counter-intuitive to the majority of new players.

As Tony Vargas touched upon, we live in a world where, for centuries, the cultural norm has enforced the trope "Chaos is Evil, Law is Good". It's why "Anarchy" is a dirty word in most countries except a few (like Spain), where Anarchists have managed to actually become a viable political minority. As he said, the concept of Lawful Evil or Chaotic Good baffles many newcomers to the genre, because they sound so ridiculous to them: how can you be law-abiding and evil? How can you reject law and be good?

So, really, it's no surprise that WoTC would choose to trim them down. Neutral & Chaotic Good mesh together so easily it's harder to argue for why you should separate them other than "It's tradition!" Same thing goes with Lawful & Neutral Evil. As for why LN and CN got the axe, I suspect it's because, in practice, these just tended to become excuses for players to be annoying more than anything. There's a reason "I ban all Evil and Chaotic Neutral PCs" is accepted as standard practice amongst DMs.

Would it have been better if they'd just gone with Good, Evil, Law and Chaos, making them all entirely separate things? Maybe. But 4e's cosmology follows the Chaoskampf cycle of many real-world traditions. By the very setup of Primordials (pure Chaos) and Gods (strongly Orderly) fighting, Chaos is still upheld as predominantly a force for evil and ruination, whilst Order is held up as supporting and attendant to good.

I don't get how "I'm unconcerned or above these cosmological forces" equates to "I strive for a balance between these cosmological forces"... IMO those are two different sets of belief systems.
What exactly else are you supposed to call it? You're unaligned with Good, Evil, Law or Chaos. Yes, that makes Unaligned an umbrella term for "I strive for balance" alongside "I don't care to involve myself in the struggle" to "I consider myself above such definitions", but let's not forget that people haven't been able to agree if Lawful means "I obey external laws" or if it means "I adhere to a strong internalized code of conduct" since the days of 1st edition!

Furthermore not sure a follower of the balance is the "stupidest"... yes if you're trying to balance one act for another it is silly but IMO that's a misunderstanding of what it means to keep the forces in balance. The source material was based along the lines of protagonists not letting either force get an overwhelming foothold on their world and thus push your plane spiraling into unbridled chaos or stagnant law.
The problem is, whilst that might have been the source in Moorcock's works, it's very much not the case in D&D. As I said, the very first definition of True Neutral was, to all practical purposes, a backstabbing traitor; they were explicitly told that they were supposed to balance out acts of good with acts of evil, and acts of law with acts of chaos, all to tinker with the balance by constantly switching sides and working alongside the current underdog. There's a reason that WoTC changed True Neutral to instead be "indifferent to the Four Powers" in its official writeup in 3rd edition, and that's because the official 1st and 2nd edition writeup for it made absolutely no sense.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
Would it have been better if they'd just gone with Good, Evil, Law and Chaos, making them all entirely separate things? Maybe. But 4e's cosmology follows the Chaoskampf cycle of many real-world traditions. By the very setup of Primordials (pure Chaos) and Gods (strongly Orderly) fighting, Chaos is still upheld as predominantly a force for evil and ruination, whilst Order is held up as supporting and attendant to good.

I'm okay with this being the prevalent attitude towards Law and Chaos, i.e people think and say "Laws are good, Chaos dah wurst"

That way when they encounter a Chaotic group or faction that is on their side, it throws their preconceived notions to the winds. (And later, when they find a lawful group that is "inhumane" if you will, it gets even better.)

Thus REVEALING, the true basis of the Cosmos, LAW versus Chaos, with flavorings of good versus evil as viewed by mortals.
 

Would it have been better if they'd just gone with Good, Evil, Law and Chaos, making them all entirely separate things? Maybe. But 4e's cosmology follows the Chaoskampf cycle of many real-world traditions. By the very setup of Primordials (pure Chaos) and Gods (strongly Orderly) fighting, Chaos is still upheld as predominantly a force for evil and ruination, whilst Order is held up as supporting and attendant to good.

Given how many evil gods were hanging around 4e vs. 3-4 actually good gods (and 1 dead one) and a bunch of formerly good gods were who were unaligned (and whose jerk factor got kicked up in order to emphasize their newfound unalignment), I think it is a little hard to say that they were calling order good.....or it would have been had they not adopted total nihilism as the default for CE (although I find it interesting that Pathfinder decided total nihilism is actually a NE thing, who would have thought there was such a market for total nihilism?).

I seem to recall that in D&D's case, they were primarily trying to make demons different from devils, but it is too bad that 4e's grids and interrupted actions could have supported some kind of "aura of hostility" (get close to the demon, fail a wisdom save, make a basic attack against your closest ally), "aura of greed" for the yugoloths (I haven't figured out exact how that would work), and an "aura of pride" for devils (this would have been the best 4e monster power ever, fail the save and you can't benefit from any leader's abilities until the end of the devil's next turn).

I will have to say that I have often found the all but forgotten LN (good), LN (evil), CN (good), CN (evil), NG (law), NG (chaos), NE (law), NE (chaos) much more interesting and informative than LN, CN, NG, NE, and N.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I seem to recall that in D&D's case, they were primarily trying to make demons different from devils
Well, that worked. Of course, I always found them different.
OTOH, at the same time, they made Slaadi officially the same as Demons. (Which is also what they always were, but not, IMHO, what they should have been. Chaos has always gotten a raw deal, is what I'm say'n.)
but it is too bad that 4e's grids and interrupted actions could have supported some kind of "aura of hostility" (get close to the demon, fail a wisdom save, make a basic attack against your closest ally), "aura of greed" for the yugoloths (I haven't figured out exact how that would work)
While in the aura, take an OA against any ally that moves adjacent? "No, you're trying to take my precious! Stay away!"

, and an "aura of pride" for devils (this would have been the best 4e monster power ever, fail the save and you can't benefit from any leader's abilities until the end of the devil's next turn).
*snag*
 

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