D&D lovers who hate Vancian magic

[Neonchameleon]

I'm going to misinterpret your point here and run with it, so bear with me for a moment.

Although Vancian magic does not mechanically match typical fiction, it matches the feel of older classic fiction. That it, powerful magic is something that is only available sparingly. It takes a lot of effort to cast a spell, and after you cast it once it would be extremely rare to see it cast again any time soon.

And this to me is where D&D Vancian casting fails utterly and thoroughly once you reach AD&D 2e. "Once per day" is not rare unless you happen to live in Fantasy ing Vietnam or be playing a small commando unit, fast moving and hard hitting and on a mission to loot all you can - and never spend the night (or if you try you get hit by a wandering monster roll every ten minutes).

Gandalf might not spam spells - but he would if he was an AD&D mage. How many fights does the Fellowship get into in all the weeks it was travelling? The only time it's more than one in a day is IIRC Moria. So other than Moria in D&D he would have a full loadout of spells. The 4e Bladesinger would be a better match for Gandalf - with only four daily attack spells at level 30 and the rest of it being either minor magic or bladework.

And as for characters like Jadis who barely cast at all, they are not AD&D Magic Users. AD&D magic users are more like Harry Potter - able to scream Expelliarmus half a dozen times in a day and still have half a dozen other spells at mid level.

On the other hand inside a dungeon the 1e spellcasting rules work the way you say. Outside they fail miserably. It's an easy tweak - Wizards need to be in a secure environment with a library and clerics in a church to regain any serious magic. But it's not a tweak that's part of D&D, meaning that the second D&D wizards stop dungeoneering they stop behaving anything like the fiction.

I'm not sure the fiction would change. Most D&D related fiction I've read (and that's a lot) skirts around the distinct prepared casting slots and memorization parts. The wizards have just the right spells prepared mostly. If the Spellpoint system would be default but the spells and accessible spell levels stay the same I think you'd still recognize it as D&D.

Indeed. Vancian casting doesn't even simulate D&D fiction very well. That's how bad a narrative fail it is the second you take it away from dungeoneering.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Vancian casting doesn't even simulate D&D fiction very well. That's how bad a narrative fail it is the second you take it away from dungeoneering.

That would be a failing on the part of the fiction writers, not the system. (I don't read game fiction.)

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A question about Harry Potter- do the spellcasters in that need wands or other foci, or are those mainly for show?

 

[gamerprinter]

And this to me is where D&D Vancian casting fails utterly and thoroughly once you reach AD&D 2e. "Once per day" is not rare unless you happen to live in Fantasy ing Vietnam or be playing a small commando unit, fast moving and hard hitting and on a mission to loot all you can - and never spend the night (or if you try you get hit by a wandering monster roll every ten minutes).

Gandalf might not spam spells - but he would if he was an AD&D mage. How many fights does the Fellowship get into in all the weeks it was travelling? The only time it's more than one in a day is IIRC Moria. So other than Moria in D&D he would have a full loadout of spells. The 4e Bladesinger would be a better match for Gandalf - with only four daily attack spells at level 30 and the rest of it being either minor magic or bladework.

And as for characters like Jadis who barely cast at all, they are not AD&D Magic Users. AD&D magic users are more like Harry Potter - able to scream Expelliarmus half a dozen times in a day and still have half a dozen other spells at mid level.

On the other hand inside a dungeon the 1e spellcasting rules work the way you say. Outside they fail miserably. It's an easy tweak - Wizards need to be in a secure environment with a library and clerics in a church to regain any serious magic. But it's not a tweak that's part of D&D, meaning that the second D&D wizards stop dungeoneering they stop behaving anything like the fiction.

Indeed. Vancian casting doesn't even simulate D&D fiction very well. That's how bad a narrative fail it is the second you take it away from dungeoneering.

Fantasy fiction, well most of it anyway, seems to be a much lower level of magic than that of a typcial D&D world. Middle Earth has much less magic than D&D, so comparing Gandalf with a D&D wizard is apples and oranges. While a balrog suggests a much higher level of magic exists in Middle Earth, this magic is outside the power of the player characters. Nobody in the fellowship beyond Gandalf did any magic at all.

If you're playing in a magic weak world, then one could more closely go along with your line of thinking - IMO. Most fantasy fiction writers don't have D&D in mind when designing their worlds.

I've read some D&D short fiction that in fact, included the daily preparation of spells as part of the story, I guess it depends who is writing the D&D fiction. It's the fault of the story, not the magic.

I have to agree with Danny on that last part of your quote above.

 

[Neonchameleon]

That would be a failing on the part of the fiction writers, not the system. (I don't read game fiction.)

It's both. And a severe failure on the part of the editors. But it still says that the magic system is unintuitive enough that the writers don't always use it.

A question about Harry Potter- do the spellcasters in that need wands or other foci, or are those mainly for show?

Wands help wizards in about the same way weapons help fighters. Wizards can cast spells without them but it's much harder and they can do a lot less with a whole lot less control.

 

[Matt James]

Vancian magic can stay, but it can't be so unbalancing as to disincentivize the play of other character types (fighter, et al.)

 

[Neonchameleon]

Fantasy fiction, well most of it anyway, seems to be a much lower level of magic than that of a typcial D&D world. Middle Earth has much less magic than D&D, so comparing Gandalf with a D&D wizard is apples and oranges. While a balrog suggests a much higher level of magic exists in Middle Earth, this magic is outside the power of the player characters. Nobody in the fellowship beyond Gandalf did any magic at all.

If you're playing in a magic weak world, then one could more closely go along with your line of thinking - IMO. Most fantasy fiction writers don't have D&D in mind when designing their worlds.

I see an excluded middle there. I can think of worlds that are higher magic than D&D. All the ones I can think of have something in common, however - if protagonists are not magic users (or inherently magical), there is a plot-related reason.

And this is where I bounce off the "high magic" of AD&D/3.X/PF. The fighters are playing an ultimately low magic setting with added bling (even Aragorn had a flaming sword), while the casters are playing high magic. To me this jars badly unless either everyone is at least as powerful a caster as a bard or no one's a more powerful caster than a bard.

 

[Mercutio01]

I haven't seen Dresden Files get brought up yet. I think that's a pretty good example of a Vancian magic system that I do like. It's not that spells get wiped from memory, but that they tax the user and become harder to cast repeatedly.

Anyway, that's what I'd like to see.

Me, I don't tend to play wizards in D&D because I get paralyzed by the number of options. I generally prefer sorcerers and warlocks even though I like the Vancian system, simply because there are not nearly as many options.

 

[gamerprinter]

I see an excluded middle there. I can think of worlds that are higher magic than D&D. All the ones I can think of have something in common, however - if protagonists are not magic users (or inherently magical), there is a plot-related reason.

And this is where I bounce off the "high magic" of AD&D/3.X/PF. The fighters are playing an ultimately low magic setting with added bling (even Aragorn had a flaming sword), while the casters are playing high magic. To me this jars badly unless either everyone is at least as powerful a caster as a bard or no one's a more powerful caster than a bard.

I did say most fantasy fiction was magic weaker, that doesn't mean to suggest there aren't higher magical worlds than D&D.

I can see your point of view, though I don't find it so jarring myself. Not everyone should be a caster, even a partial one. But your argument has merit.

 

[jimmifett]

Having originally started with Gurps, my only exposure to DnD had been PC games from what i think are called the Gold Box series and the Intellivision games. My dad had bought them (he played DnD when I was a baby) and at that time (about 12-ish) I was more into sci-fi. I tried it, was completely confused by the rules.

Coming from gurps, I wondered why I couldn't choose any race/class combo I wanted. The vancian magic system confused the heck out of me until I figured out the original Final Fantasy game used it (and I hated that system). AC and thac0 made no sense. But I could kill things and that was what mattered! I thought some of the puzzles were neat, but never played the PnP version of the game until Heroes of Battle and Eberron.

The idea of special forces elves and a pre-WWII-ish feeling fantasy world with political intrigue sounded damn cool to me. After that, I was hooked.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I did say most fantasy fiction was magic weaker, that doesn't mean to suggest there aren't higher magical worlds than D&D.

I can see your point of view, though I don't find it so jarring myself. Not everyone should be a caster, even a partial one. But your argument has merit.

Thanks. And to clarify, I don't mean that everyone should be a caster or no one should. I'd have no problem playing a thief who could hide from just about anything and steal thoughts from peoples minds or a fighter who was quite literally immune to magic. A high magic warrior even if he can't directly cast spells.

And I have no problem with casters in low magic games. They just have to be low magic casters (like the Bard).

But when a third level wizard with Int 14 makes a better cat burglar (spider climb or levitate and knock to break in, tenser's disk and mount to carry off the loot, and charm and sleep for the guards) than a fifth level rogue does, something's gone badly wrong. Sure, he can only do it once a night to the minor aristocracy - but that's quite enough. When Fagin would have been better off teaching casting than to pick a pocket or two something's gone wrong.