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D&D 5E D&D Next: Let's discuss it's mass multimedia goal.

When Marvel first started with the X-Men movies, it wasn't the Marvel brand that was crucial. It was those characters and that universe (which to date hasn't been meaningfully integrated with the Spiderman or Avengers universe).

Marvel don't do the X-Man movies. The rights for the X-Men (and the Fantastic Four, and I think the Silver Surfer) are with Fox. Spider Man is with Sony (with Ghost Rider). So they're not likely to integrate very much. I imagine the MCU would like them back but that's going to take time and money.

WotC of course are in a different position, since they don't have outside groups owning significant parts of their IP.
 

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pemerton

Legend
Marvel don't do the X-Man movies. The rights for the X-Men (and the Fantastic Four, and I think the Silver Surfer) are with Fox. Spider Man is with Sony (with Ghost Rider).
But from memory those movies still have the Marvel logo associated with them (that reddy-orange page-ruffle thing). So, over time and with exposure, those movies can still lead viewers to other movies with the Marvel logo.

And presumably Marvel made/makes money from the licensing?

I still feel that this is a problem that WotC would love to have.
 

But from memory those movies still have the Marvel logo associated with them (that reddy-orange page-ruffle thing). So, over time and with exposure, those movies can still lead viewers to other movies with the Marvel logo.

And presumably Marvel made/makes money from the licensing?

I still feel that this is a problem that WotC would love to have.

Most of the people I know put them in the generic category "superhero movies", and I've heard more than a few discussions about the possibility of Batman appearing alongside Spiderman - just to use one example. Marvel doesn't really get mentioned that often as a connection.

I'm sure they made money when the initial licences went out, but according to some film industry sources the contracts don't include any of the profits from subsequent movies. So Amazing Spider Man 2 isn't making anything for Marvel at the moment.

Still, my main point was that there weren't likely to be cross-overs between the Avengers and X-men or Peter Parker because the rights are owned by competing companies. This is a problem WotC doesn't have in the same way. An Avengers/X-Men crossover wouldn't offend the most fanatical fans or ordinary movie-goers, whereas a Heroes of the Lance/Drizzt one would certainly get complaints from the first group.
 

I still feel that this is a problem that WotC would love to have.

That's for sure.

The real problem, though, with marketing D&D stuff, as compared to Marvel, is that Marvel is about stories, stories that have in many cases been repeated to the point that they've virtually cultural touchstones (at least for some significant minority of the population). The same is true of LotR and many other properties. You say you don't think most people were familiar with the LotR novels, I note. I think that's both true and false. It's true, I think, that most people in the audiences hadn't actually read all of the novels. However, I would suggest that most people in the audience were either going with people who had read some or all of the novels, or were least culturally familiar with them, aware of the general themes and so on.

With D&D, it's a game, not a set of stories. There are no real general themes to be culturally aware of (or if they are, they're game-y stuff, like about the fickle-ness of DMs, or the weird dice) Whilst there are novels attached, and they've sold well, they don't have a huge rabid fanbase, nor a youthful fanbase (who are the most useful fanbase for getting bums on seats in cinemas, generally, and importantly, selling merchandise), nor, further, does that fanbase necessarily cross over strongly with the fans of the game. The D&D novel fanbase is perhaps more comparable with the fanbase of the EU Star Wars novels (recently disregarded as irrelevant by Disney, and logically so, I think), or the Star Trek novels. But smaller.

So there's no "story, eternally told" for D&D to leverage to build it's brand.

That makes it a very tricky prospect, movie-wise.

Not to say that it's impossible, but I think you'd really want to write a strong movie, then brand it D&D in the opening credits, Marvel style, and actually try to avoid mentioning D&D in the marketing (the people who care WILL already know).

Even in computer gaming and the like, D&D is a weak brand these days. It has been superceded, essentially by world/setting/aesthetic brands, like Dragon Age, Elder Scrolls, or Warcraft. Putting D&D on a game is a way to get people to look at it a bit more than usual, but they will not be expecting brilliance (most D&D games in the last 10+ years have been pretty mediocre or outright bad), and there is little reason to pick D&D over another brand.

D&D could could counter this by marketing itself setting first, brand second. I could very easily see "Forgotten Realms" or "Dark Sun" becoming big, popular brands, if WotC could get a company to actually make a good, aesthetically striking game set there (and simplify the settings to the point where they were accessible and distinctive). "Ravenloft" might be another option - I suspect gothic will make a comeback in the next half-decade or so (TV is already moving that way with Penny Dreadful, Constantine and the like).

The big problem in gaming is, though, the precedent Bioware set with Dragon Age. They explicitly decided to avoid using D&D, and to create their own IP, so they were beholden to no-one. And it worked. And now it seems like anyone creating a fantasy game simply goes with their own IP, rather than trying to license one, despite so many being available - the one recent except being Numenera, and I suspect that was solely because they "got in on the ground floor" with that on.

This is an increasingly common view in the games industry - Bobby Kotick from Activision recently noted that a significant reason that Destiny is an original IP was to prevent them ever being beholden to anyone (something like "If you're risking $500m, you want to do it with your own IP").

To be clear, I'm not saying "Don't try!", but I am saying that WotC will need a very clear strategy, and quite a lot of luck to really get anywhere with this. I definitely think that their current track with D&D, which is to say making the FR the default setting and paying concept art specialists to create the art, and attempting to give it a distinct, consistent style, is a good first step if they want to be successful with this. They will need to look to the long term, though, and really rebuild the brand quite carefully - I'd be particularly keen that they avoid allowing any more mediocre or bad games or movies to use the D&D or FR brands.
 

DMZ2112

Chaotic Looseleaf
That should probably read "two in ten ENworlders". If I turn my head I can look at a shelf with a super-hero comic collection numbering in the many 100s, and I don't think I could do this: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, The Flash, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Aquaman, The Martian Manhunter, Red Tornado? Is Dr Fate in there somewhere? Who else?

Okay, fair enough? I made the assertion knowing that I was in the eight who couldn't!
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Ruin Explorer said:
With D&D, it's a game, not a set of stories.

While that's kind of true, I think this overlooks something really vital.

Games and stories revolve around the same thing: conflict. The only thing that differentiates them is that games require the player to input things to resolve the conflict (they are interactive), while stories resolve their own conflict as the reader follows them.

The central conflict of a D&D game is: group of people leave town, go to a dungeon, slay some evil inside of it (the dragon), and return to town loaded with treasure. As a game, that requires player participation to accomplish.

But as a story, you can just insert something into the player's role and still resolve it. That is, you can make specific characters specific to that story and have them resolve the conflict while the audience watches it happen.

Four specific heroes (protagonist-human, plus supporting cast of elf, dwarf, and halfling) from a local village set out to destroy the evil dragon in the dark ruin of a lost glorious empire. Stick those characters in a Joseph Campbell plot arc, or a 3 act or 5 act structure, and you HAVE a movie. A million movies, really. All of which, with the right logo, anyone would recognize as a D&D movie.

Games and stories are conflict-driven. That conflict can be the same across media.
 



Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
That's for sure.

The real problem, though, with marketing D&D stuff, as compared to Marvel, is that Marvel is about stories, stories that have in many cases been repeated to the point that they've virtually cultural touchstones (at least for some significant minority of the population).

Few outside of comics fans knew the story of Iron Man.

Few outside of comics fans knew the story of Thor, aside from the actual historical Thor myth (not the comics one).

Few outside of comics fans knew the story of Captain America.

Few outside of comics fans knew the story of Nick Fury, Black Widow, Hawkeye, SHIELD, etc..

Few outside of comics fans knew the store of Blade.

Few, including comics fans, know the story of Guardians of the Galaxy, and I think that movie is going to do very well also.

The stories that have succeeded for Marvel the most, are the ones the larger population knew the least.

I know people knew the stories of Batman, Superman, Spiderman, and Hulk. But the first three were not Marvel Studios (and didn't do as well as Marvel has overall), and the last is one of the least profitable of the Marvel movies.

So I just don't think your claim holds up against the evidence of the industry. Marvel Studios has not succeeded because of stories that were cultural touchstones before they were movies. They succeeded with stories about as strong as the stories of Drizzt Do'Urden and Elminster, Raistlin and Tasslehoff, Gord the Rogue, Mordenkainen and Bigby, etc..

More importantly, even if you think the Marvel stories were more popular, I don't think the gap is as big as you think it is, or as important as you think it is. The name "Dungeons & Dragons" itself carries recognition for people, just as "Marvel Superhero" carries recognition. Those broad titles are far more important than the recognition people have for the specific character.
 
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Derren

Hero
The name "Dungeons & Dragons" itself carries recognition for people, just as "Marvel Superhero" carries recognition. Those broad titles are far more important than the recognition people have for the specific character.

I disagree. "Iron Man", etc. draws a lot more people than Marvel. Or taken from the video games, "Baldurs Gate" and "Neverwinter Nights" were always more important than "D&D".
The D&D Brand just lacks character and in itself does not draw any people outside of PnP games, because only there D&D has some defining characteristics (like D20, etc.)
What would make a D&D movie any different from a generic fantasy movie?

And that is a other difference. There is not that much movie competition for superheroes in power armor. But fantasy movies? Lots of them and we are now already late in the cycle and the danger of over saturation becomes bigger and bigger.
 

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