D20 Modern vs. Spycraft: Tell me which one you like better

Henry

Autoexreginated
Psion said:
I'm not arguing that it doesn't support superspies and does it well. I am arguing that to peg it as just that is to ignore many of the innovations that occured in this edition.

So, as is common, you and I are saying the same thing. :D Spycraft's biggest problem facing it, though, is the pigeonholing, which is that Crafty Games' crew has got to counteract with their upcoming products. "Back to Basics" takes a big step, but the other products really have to nail their respective genres, or people are going to keep relegating it to just "action spy" stuff.
 

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solkan_uk

First Post
A bit pointless replying on this thread at this stage, but for Espionage, Spycraft is hands-down better. D20 Modern can do it, but the biggest cool thing in Spycraft (Dramatic Conflicts) makes d20 modern seem somewhat inadequate (how would you do an exciting chase in d20 modern - you'd be essentially winging it).

I wonder if it would be possible to file off the serial numbers for Spycraft 2.0 and present it as a generic system? Remove all the spy-themed art work, remove the themed feat names (though most aren't particularly spy themed, more action themed) and call it the Crafty d20 system?

In my opinion the classes of spycraft offer more freedom than the classes of d20 modern. Who sticks with d20 modern base classes, when we played we qualified for an advanced class as soon as possible and then basically ignored the base classes, so how is this different to starting with a themed class? In addition with the increased functionality of skills its actually easier to fill a wierd concept in Spycraft.
In d20 modern you are just as bound by the classes, it's just an illusion that you're not. Going back to the hacker example? How many people when creating a hacker would go for anything other than Smart Hero/Hacker (I seem to recall a Hacker AdvClass, I'm sure there'll be one somewhere), and yet in Spycraft, you can be an awesome hacker without sticking to one route... I've played a hacker with no hacker levels at all (as an Advocate), and he could enter and exit most systems, and even take on those with the actual hacker class as long as they weren't heavily optimised, the point was he had other tricks up his sleave as well.

If you gave us a character concept I'd be willing to bet that we could generally come up with more competent ways to fill it in Spycraft than in D20 modern.
 

AscentStudios

First Post
Henry said:
So, as is common, you and I are saying the same thing. :D Spycraft's biggest problem facing it, though, is the pigeonholing, which is that Crafty Games' crew has got to counteract with their upcoming products. "Back to Basics" takes a big step, but the other products really have to nail their respective genres, or people are going to keep relegating it to just "action spy" stuff.

Henry, I didn't reply to your earlier post where you mentioned pigeonholing, but I completely agree :) Once we got 2.0 in the can back in early 2005, we immediately started brainstorming non-espionage supplements to run with (as had always been our plan). World on Fire, based on the CCG world, was the logical first release in the espionage genre in a game called Spycraft, but our plan always was to spread out to other genres like space opera (Farthest Star), cyberpunk (Shatterpunk), horror (Crucible), street (Ten Thousand Bullets) and so forth. With the changes in AEG and the handing off of the license, it's only now that Crafty Games can bring those plans to fruition, and work proceeds apace on literally all of them. About damn time, I say :cool:
 

Morgenstern

First Post
If anyone knows a good spy movie (or published story) starring centuars or medusae, I want to know about it.

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure Origin of the Species is roosting in some other pigeon hole :D.
 

Committed Hero

Adventurer
Morgenstern said:
If anyone knows a good spy movie (or published story) starring centuars or medusae, I want to know about it.

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure Origin of the Species is roosting in some other pigeon hole :D.
This and this is as close as I can get to your criteria - I bet it was closer than you expected, though.
 
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Vigilance

Explorer
solkan_uk said:
If you gave us a character concept I'd be willing to bet that we could generally come up with more competent ways to fill it in Spycraft than in D20 modern.

Id really rather this thread (or any thread) not descend into "Spycraft PWNS Modern!" "No Modern PWNS Spycraft!"

This is the second comment like this you've made.

I dont think they add anything to the discussion.

Assume the people you're talking to won't just hear you say "every Modern does Spycraft does better" and take it on face value and you'll get more people to listen to what you have to say.

As it is the only people who would listen are people who already agree with you, which doesn't do much to advance the cause of your game of choice.

Chuck
 

Kanegrundar

Explorer
Well said, Chuck. All in all, it comes down to what you want out of your games. Neither system really PWNS the other. They do similar things in different ways that will appeal to people differently. Trying to prove one system is better than the other doesn't get us anywhere. (Unless we're comparing D20 Modern or SC2 to Rifts, or something like that... :D )
 

Morgenstern

First Post
Committed Hero said:
This and this is as close as I can get to your criteria - I bet it was closer than you expected, though.

Rock on! "Acute gorgonism." I love it :).

One of our playtesters glomed on to using a single, utterly unique Gorgon as an escaped test subject during a test scenario. Basically I put OotS (not Order of the Stick) together with that kind of plug and play mentality so I'm actually pleased to see an example in fiction :D.
 

arscott

First Post
solkan_uk said:
In my opinion the classes of spycraft offer more freedom than the classes of d20 modern. Who sticks with d20 modern base classes, when we played we qualified for an advanced class as soon as possible and then basically ignored the base classes, so how is this different to starting with a themed class? In addition with the increased functionality of skills its actually easier to fill a wierd concept in Spycraft.
In d20 modern you are just as bound by the classes, it's just an illusion that you're not. Going back to the hacker example? How many people when creating a hacker would go for anything other than Smart Hero/Hacker (I seem to recall a Hacker AdvClass, I'm sure there'll be one somewhere), and yet in Spycraft, you can be an awesome hacker without sticking to one route... I've played a hacker with no hacker levels at all (as an Advocate), and he could enter and exit most systems, and even take on those with the actual hacker class as long as they weren't heavily optimised, the point was he had other tricks up his sleave as well.

If you gave us a character concept I'd be willing to bet that we could generally come up with more competent ways to fill it in Spycraft than in D20 modern.
Deal. How 'bout a hacker. There's not actually an advanced class called the hacker (although there's a hacker-focused class called the shadowjack in Urban Arcana). And a Smart Hero/Shadowjack is definatly not the only way to build a hacker. I can think of five different ways to build a hacker, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.

But first, the honorable mentions--The Strong Hacker, the Fast Hacker, the Tough Hacker, the Charismatic Hacker, And all of the Advanced Class Hackers. Since hacking is governed by the Computer Use skill, the only thing you need to be a hacker is to take ranks in the skill, and with starting occupations, everyone can have Computer Use as a class skill. While you can make a fast hero that's good at hacking, for instance, the fast hero's abilities don't actually improve your effectiveness as a hacker. Likewise, your Technomage is going to be a pretty competent computer hacker (and even gets a bonus on all checks related to technology), that's kinda dwarfed by his ability to cast spells.

1) The computer scientist. A straight smart hero build, this represents someone whose hacking ability comes from his superior training and general knowledge of computer programming. Taking the Savant talent for the computer use skill gives him a bonus equal to his smart level. Plus, he can take the plan talent and net himself more bonuses for the first few rounds of hacking. This hacker's superior training gives him the absolute best computer use score in the long run.

2) The intuitive hacker. A straight dedicated hero build, this represents someon whose hacking ability comes from subconcious intuition, rather than training. Skill emphasis for a +3 bonus to computer use checks make her as good or better than the smart hero for the first few levels. And when she rolls poorly, faith lets her get more use out of her action points than the smart hero would. Plus, the dedicated hero's superior combat ability means that she can afford to save more action points for hacking checks, and cool under pressure lets her take 10 on computer use checks. While the computer scientist's training outstrips her at the higher levels, this hacker's intuition is actually superior at first few levels.

3) The hardware guy. A techie build, this guy only hacks when he can't build machines to do the hacking for him. Basically, he's Marshall from Alias. Between the stuff he does before the mission starts (building, repairing, and improving stuff) and the stuff can do from a distance (hacking, directing robots, directing robots to hack), he can pretty much just stay behind in the van while the rest of the party sneaks into the building. That means he's free to focus all of his resources and abilities on being good at what he does, instead of being decent in combat.

4) The field hacker. A field scientist build. In contrast to the hardware guy, this is somone who's good at hacking while bullets are flying over her head. d8 hit dice, good fort and ref saves, and the smart defense and smart survival abilites all work to improve her survivability, while skill mastery let her take 10 on hacking while other folks are shooting.

5) The shadowjack. The shadowjack can't actually get the super-high computer use score that a 10th level smart hero is capable of. But in exchange, he gets bonuses to attempt certain sorts of checks and a slew of abilities that prevent him from getting caught if he screws up.
 

solkan_uk

First Post
Since hacking is governed by the Computers skill, the only thing you need to be a hacker is to take ranks in the skill, and with origins & feats, everyone can have Computer Use as a class skill - though if you're willing to pay double you can max out just as much as anyone even without said options. Spycraft characters don't lack for options.

The below are what I came up with without using any multi-classing, some are Expert Classes (similar to Advanced classes - they can all be reached as your 5th level) but I've made no assumptions as to prior class. With Back to Basics, you essentially get the d20 modern core classes which expand options even more. Multiclassing etc can bring in other abilities to make things more diverse.

1) The Straight Hacker - Hacker class all the way. L337 stops you failing those routine hacks, though merely makes you less likely to fail completely on 'special' hacks. Master key gives you a bit of a boost too. Most of the other abilities are on the periphery of hacking, useful to get prepared rather than on the actual hack. Up until the 14th level ability...

2) "The Computer Scientist" - Scientist all the way, the Scientist class can actually outdo the hacker on straight hacking (though doesn't have as much related backup). At level 2 they get Ph.D. which lets them increase the maximum rank up to lvl+8! Other abilities, in particular: Bright Idea (roll int based skill check twice - keep best), No Worries (-2 error with electronic gear), Skill Mastery (-2 error with 1 skill) & 10 Second Solution (auto 20 on int skill check 1/session) all add to the goodness.

3) "The Overseer" - Pointman, not as good at the actual hack, but in a team of hackers he can give a boost to everyone else in the team, and can be made competent via selectable abilities, feats and skill options.

4) "Intelligence Gatherer" - The Snoop is the master of electonic surveilance, while not directly computer based with the ability Intercept Communication - which allows you to "clandestinely intercept the next telephone call, email, or other communication to or from the target without making a skill check" it can't be ignored as it can make hacking irrelevant in some cases. They have some other abilities which can help out - but nothing major.

5) "The hardware guy" - The Inventor (Expert Class) is another support character, improving the gear of himself and others making it more powerful, reliable and being able to throw something together with whatever's available, should your hacker team suddenly find themselves without a computer or other piece of vital equipment (& doesn't have a load of abilities to do with robots which really annoyed me about the d20 modern techie).

6) "The Schemer" (Expert Class)- not to be overlooked as a potential hacker, the schemer's 'Calculating' ability makes your special hacks better (AD result = Int bonus if rolled less), Mental Leap grants a boost to intelligence (or dex/wis), most of their other abilities can be used in hacking.

7) "The Expert" - The Virtuoso (Expert Class), makes you really good and really respected with 1 skill - I don't really like this class, but it can't be denied for sheer power in the computer skill you can't go wrong.

Vigilance I didn't realise anything I said was offensive, though I've got a new baby daughter who's trying her hardest to deny me sleep, so please take anything I say in that light.
I'm not saying d20 modern is a bad system, and a few years ago I would have been promoting that, however at least for me and my group Spycraft has proven superior. It may not do for everyone. All I'm trying to do is get people to give Spycraft a chance, if my rampant fanboism is actually putting people off, I'll be only too happy to shut up.
And Spycraft isn't the only modern game I play - when I want more low-key 'real-people' adventures I tend to play Storyteller (just in a different setting) though have played quite a few different systems.
 

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