D20 Modern vs. Spycraft: Tell me which one you like better
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
I will re-iterate the request that nobody tries to put d20modern and spycraft on an adversarial footing in this thread though.
Friendly enquiries about how x or y would be modelled in either situation == fine. Throwing down the gauntlet == not so fine!
Thanks
Friendly enquiries about how x or y would be modelled in either situation == fine. Throwing down the gauntlet == not so fine!
Thanks
Morgenstern
First Post
If I can weigh in for a moment on the spies-y-ness of Spycraft 2.0, I'd like to share a little designer intent.
The core book comes with 12 base classes.
Exactly one of them is "a spy".
The Faceman is maybe, sorta a part-time spy, being rooted in the con-artist, grifter, master of disguise shtick that some spies use to good effect. He really hails from the cerebral crime drama genres, but is on extended loan to the Agency after things like The Saint or even the old Mission: Impossible made the rounds. Deception and social grace are the new black - they go with everything modern and the Faceman loves a good party.
The Intruder is the other guy who often moonlights (literally) as a spy. He gets into places he's not supposed to be. He steals stuff. If that stuff happens to be secrets, then yes, he's spying that week. This guy shows up for a lot of modern parties too, but he's ussualy lurking over by the buffet table slipping diner rolls into his pockets.
The only 'real' spy is the Snoop. He's built from the ground up as an espionage archtype. ALL of the class abilites mentioned above as sounding like spy-stuff come from this one class: "Spookshow", "Black Hat", "Big Brother", "Eye in the Sky". If he sounds like he belongs in a spy game, then hell yes, things are working. Need to snatch a message without even making a check? That's some mighty fine Langley black magic and the Snoop is your go-to guy. He's also the only base class to get improved access to Tradecraft feats - that'll be important in a second.
Advocates, Explorers, Hackers, Pointmen, Scientists, Scouts, Slueths, Soldiers, and Wheelmen show up with their bags of tricks in spy flicks. They use their special skills when they get caught up in espionage affairs in the novels... But the Snoop? He Lives-and-Breathes espionage.
"Well how about gadgets? Those are all James Bond-ish, right?" Lets take a look at who gets gadgets: Explorers ("Yeah, it's some weird artifact I brought back from a dig in Mongolia. Mostly it hums, sometimes it does something usefull..."), Hackers ("Dood! Check this neat widget! I popped Globex's shipping database and the losers delivered it to my friggin' door! These things won't even hit beta 'til next year!), Intruders ("What!? Of course I brought a self-selecting laser-disrupt matrix. I've been casing this museum for six months... the security's top notch, but my supliers are too."), and Scientist ("I have got to show you my latest experiment - it's going to blow the old theories wide open!"). Advanced technology is everywhere in modern settings.
All of Spycraft's feats are sorted into trees. It's sort of like the way fighters get access to a big list of feats they can take with their class abilities in D&D, except that instead of having to add "This feat may be taken as a fighter bonus feat" 271 times as new books come out, the sorting is automatic. Certain classes get extra access to certain trees instead of fixed lists of feats - Facemen get bonus style feats, Intruders get bonus covert feats, Scouts get bonus terrain feats, Wheelmen get Chase feats, and so on. So, as new books come out, the old classes automatically update themselves. It's a nifty twist.
Spycraft has 13 of these trees. With various kinds of combat, chase, chance, covert, skill, and style feats flying around there is ONE tree called Tradecraft. It's the designated home of pure espionage stuff. Safe Houses around the world. Special interrogation techniques. Diabolical exotic poisons. Cover identities so strong even you don't always realize you're a sleeper.
And only one base class gets a choice of bonus feats from that tree - the Snoop.
If you pull the Tradecraft tree out of the game, it stops being super-spies... Instantly. It's still high octane and action packed. I quarantined those kinds of benefits to that tree exactly so that sort of switch would be causal to implement. The same way the upcoming high magic suplement keeps all of its spellcasting trappings in one tree where you can drop it in or pull it out in one pass with a statement to your players as brief as "This is a fantasy campaign, but there are going to be no Magic feats." Done. Simple.
If you pull the Tradecraft tree AND the Snoop class, it's not even spies (much less superspies) anymore. It maybe qualifies as covert action (meet Sam Fisher, Intruder). It could still be delta force (they are mostly Scouts and Pointmen). It might even be techno-thriller (Dale Brown writes some entertaining Wheelman stories with Advocates calling the shots), but "Superspies"? Nu-uh.
Action and attitude are scripted in as the defaults all over the place. But, if dropping 8% of your base class options and 6% of your feats strips it of its core espionage elements, is it really "Only a spies game"?
The core book comes with 12 base classes.
Exactly one of them is "a spy".
The Faceman is maybe, sorta a part-time spy, being rooted in the con-artist, grifter, master of disguise shtick that some spies use to good effect. He really hails from the cerebral crime drama genres, but is on extended loan to the Agency after things like The Saint or even the old Mission: Impossible made the rounds. Deception and social grace are the new black - they go with everything modern and the Faceman loves a good party.
The Intruder is the other guy who often moonlights (literally) as a spy. He gets into places he's not supposed to be. He steals stuff. If that stuff happens to be secrets, then yes, he's spying that week. This guy shows up for a lot of modern parties too, but he's ussualy lurking over by the buffet table slipping diner rolls into his pockets.
The only 'real' spy is the Snoop. He's built from the ground up as an espionage archtype. ALL of the class abilites mentioned above as sounding like spy-stuff come from this one class: "Spookshow", "Black Hat", "Big Brother", "Eye in the Sky". If he sounds like he belongs in a spy game, then hell yes, things are working. Need to snatch a message without even making a check? That's some mighty fine Langley black magic and the Snoop is your go-to guy. He's also the only base class to get improved access to Tradecraft feats - that'll be important in a second.
Advocates, Explorers, Hackers, Pointmen, Scientists, Scouts, Slueths, Soldiers, and Wheelmen show up with their bags of tricks in spy flicks. They use their special skills when they get caught up in espionage affairs in the novels... But the Snoop? He Lives-and-Breathes espionage.
"Well how about gadgets? Those are all James Bond-ish, right?" Lets take a look at who gets gadgets: Explorers ("Yeah, it's some weird artifact I brought back from a dig in Mongolia. Mostly it hums, sometimes it does something usefull..."), Hackers ("Dood! Check this neat widget! I popped Globex's shipping database and the losers delivered it to my friggin' door! These things won't even hit beta 'til next year!), Intruders ("What!? Of course I brought a self-selecting laser-disrupt matrix. I've been casing this museum for six months... the security's top notch, but my supliers are too."), and Scientist ("I have got to show you my latest experiment - it's going to blow the old theories wide open!"). Advanced technology is everywhere in modern settings.
All of Spycraft's feats are sorted into trees. It's sort of like the way fighters get access to a big list of feats they can take with their class abilities in D&D, except that instead of having to add "This feat may be taken as a fighter bonus feat" 271 times as new books come out, the sorting is automatic. Certain classes get extra access to certain trees instead of fixed lists of feats - Facemen get bonus style feats, Intruders get bonus covert feats, Scouts get bonus terrain feats, Wheelmen get Chase feats, and so on. So, as new books come out, the old classes automatically update themselves. It's a nifty twist.
Spycraft has 13 of these trees. With various kinds of combat, chase, chance, covert, skill, and style feats flying around there is ONE tree called Tradecraft. It's the designated home of pure espionage stuff. Safe Houses around the world. Special interrogation techniques. Diabolical exotic poisons. Cover identities so strong even you don't always realize you're a sleeper.
And only one base class gets a choice of bonus feats from that tree - the Snoop.
If you pull the Tradecraft tree out of the game, it stops being super-spies... Instantly. It's still high octane and action packed. I quarantined those kinds of benefits to that tree exactly so that sort of switch would be causal to implement. The same way the upcoming high magic suplement keeps all of its spellcasting trappings in one tree where you can drop it in or pull it out in one pass with a statement to your players as brief as "This is a fantasy campaign, but there are going to be no Magic feats." Done. Simple.
If you pull the Tradecraft tree AND the Snoop class, it's not even spies (much less superspies) anymore. It maybe qualifies as covert action (meet Sam Fisher, Intruder). It could still be delta force (they are mostly Scouts and Pointmen). It might even be techno-thriller (Dale Brown writes some entertaining Wheelman stories with Advocates calling the shots), but "Superspies"? Nu-uh.
Action and attitude are scripted in as the defaults all over the place. But, if dropping 8% of your base class options and 6% of your feats strips it of its core espionage elements, is it really "Only a spies game"?
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Morgenstern
First Post
And yes, I'm looking forward to putting my spin on Sci-fi out there with Farthest Star almost as much as I'm looking forward to the unmittigated cool I've been seeing in the little snippets of Shatterpunk Alex keeps slipping me .
.
Henry
Autoexreginated
Morgenstern said:And yes, I'm looking forward to putting my spin on Sci-fi out there with Farthest Star almost as much as I'm looking forward to the unmittigated cool I've been seeing in the little snippets of Shatterpunk Alex keeps slipping me
OK, so Alex is the man to bug and annoy about all the Shatterpunk info -- got it! Thanks!
That, and the high magic supplement, are the things I'm looking forward to most.
AscentStudios
First Post
Henry said:OK, so Alex is the man to bug and annoy about all the Shatterpunk info -- got it! Thanks!
That, and the high magic supplement, are the things I'm looking forward to most.
Heheh, yeah that's me. If you come to Psion's Sat. eve game at Gencon Indy this year, I can show you a preview of the cyber system
![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
Masada
First Post
I picked up SC 2.0 after reading about the awards. I must say I like it a lot. I'm not sure I could say I like one more than the other. But I can say that many of the best elements of SC could be ported to Modern and if I were WotC and I could navigate copyright and/or licensing I'd make a new edition of Modern with many of the same features.
Specifically the Skill system in SC is excellent. Opposed Action Dice pools is excellent. Some of the 20 level classes are great--some I have issues with, but good overall. I haven't read the cinematic conflict chapter yet, but my impression is that it will be good. Some of their wealth system is very nice--some is a little too complex... not that d20 Modern Wealth is a peach...
My opinion is that SC 2.0 is very good and if you've got the extra cash, you should pick it up just for the idea generation possibility, if nothing else. If you had any game that was going to focus on "missions" with no "spells", where the players worked for a large organization, you should seriously consider Spycraft over d20 Modern. But d20 Modern still covers more genres with more flexibility (generically). Even so, a spycraft/modern blend would be compelling.
Excellent work Crafty!
Specifically the Skill system in SC is excellent. Opposed Action Dice pools is excellent. Some of the 20 level classes are great--some I have issues with, but good overall. I haven't read the cinematic conflict chapter yet, but my impression is that it will be good. Some of their wealth system is very nice--some is a little too complex... not that d20 Modern Wealth is a peach...
My opinion is that SC 2.0 is very good and if you've got the extra cash, you should pick it up just for the idea generation possibility, if nothing else. If you had any game that was going to focus on "missions" with no "spells", where the players worked for a large organization, you should seriously consider Spycraft over d20 Modern. But d20 Modern still covers more genres with more flexibility (generically). Even so, a spycraft/modern blend would be compelling.
Excellent work Crafty!
johnnype
First Post
I'm very late to this thread and I can't really add much more to what's been said other than to say that I completely and 100% agree with Morgenstern and Psion.
I can't wait to see Farthest Star and Shatterpunk.
One question, I have the first printing of SC 2.0. Is the second printing worth buying or is there a errata sheet somewhere I can download? I'm tempted to get the pdf of the second printing just for the hell of it but it would be nice to know.
Thanks.
Oh, and before I forget, those who think that SC2.0 is best only for spy-related games I suggest they take a look at the Gramaton Cleric Morgenstern adapted for the game. Just one example of what you can do with Spycraft 2.0.
I can't wait to see Farthest Star and Shatterpunk.
One question, I have the first printing of SC 2.0. Is the second printing worth buying or is there a errata sheet somewhere I can download? I'm tempted to get the pdf of the second printing just for the hell of it but it would be nice to know.
Thanks.
Oh, and before I forget, those who think that SC2.0 is best only for spy-related games I suggest they take a look at the Gramaton Cleric Morgenstern adapted for the game. Just one example of what you can do with Spycraft 2.0.
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