d20 Modern: What Would you change part II

[HeapThaumaturgist]

That's a sexy-sounding bit of game design right there, mister.

A question I have is: If interative attacks as part of BAB are removed, how much is 1/1 BAB 'worth'? At first I did not like the 1-attack style of Saga, but I realized they had, instead, split out iterative attacks into feats. If iterative attack is a feat, selectable by Character Level instead of BAB, what does that do to BAB?

I.E. - My thought runs along the line of disassociating attack bonus, defense bonus, etc etc, from class LEVELS but attaching them to classes. So that selecting, say, Strong, may give you access to a better attack bonus structure but that structure is not disrupted by then multiclassing into Fast or Dedicated.

--fje

 

[Vigilance]

Well for my part, I haven't removed iterative attacks, but I have unhinged them from BAB.

Also, for inspiring other people, Leadership is a skill now.

Finally, I'm just absorbing all the class talk, rather than responding for now, because I'm still doing occupations. There's a lot of them.

 

[Vigilance]

I've posted a new design diary, giving a peek at how the combat skills will work, starting naturally with unarmed combat because I'm still that guy.

 

[Trevino Anterlux]

A few turn offs to the d20 modern game my group had was the lack of balance between the classes. It seemed like the tough and fast heroes were vastly over powered compared to other heroes, especially a dedicated hero. A hero based on high saves is great and all, but what are they doing in battle? I might have missed something in their descriptions but from my groups observations there was a problem with class balance. I hope that the issue will be resolved in 2.0. Great thread everyone, thanks!

 

[Nuclear Platypus]

I propose that the name of the damage dealing class be "Thag-o-mizer" with the brainy guy be named "Bonehead".

 

[Mokona]

Occupations and Backgrounds is where most of the flavor will come from in the rules I'm writing.

The Modern d2.0 ideas you present aren't what I'd choose but I want to say thanks. You definitely got me to consider some new concepts. I prefer Saga and in trying to come up with points I stumbled upon the following idea...

Breaking down a character in to its constituent parts

1. Initial abilities
The six attributes (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, and Cha) are one of the fundamental starting abilities that are rarely, if ever, replaced. Character species also falls into this category.

2. Abilities that automatically scale with level
These abilities increase as the character increases in level but require no individual choices. In standard d20 the only choice that affects these progressions is which Class to take at each character level. These include Base Attack Bonus, saving throws, defense, Hit Dice, Action Points, reputation, and Caster Level. Could also include new progressions such as magic rating (magic-equivalent BAB), wealth, or initiative bonus.

3. Temporary benefits
Abilities that characters only receive while they’re a current or active member of some group. It seems like your occupations offer something like this while D20 Modern and Dungeons & Dragons don’t really use this except with equipment.

4. One time choices
Feats and talents are essentially “pick your special ability” choices each time you receive one. Once you’ve made the decision it’s locked in. They often represent some game rules to which you gain access (Craft Wondrous Item, Spring Attack, &c) or change the way default rules apply to your character (Weapon Proficiency).

5. Continuous (or stacking) choices
The best example here is skill points (a system I’d replace with Trained vs. Untrained). For some players in D&D these are effectively #2: abilities that scale with level. For others it’s a mix of improving some highly effective skills, being a generalist, or gaining new proficiency with others. This category is similar to and could have been considered part of #4: one time choices. For example, attribute increases could be considered part of stacking choices but they only happen every 4th level so I’d put them in #4 above.

Application

I see how a major change could work given the outline above. Classes could be divorced from any ability that isn’t strictly a level-based progression chart. Then occupations could carry the flavor of skill points, skill selection, and temporary benefits. You’ve already stated that every character gets a Feat at each level so that’s automatic to all characters just like attribute increase are already.

 

[Azgulor]

See here Chuck... next time you tell me you never see people talking smack about Spycraft, I want you to remember this post.

When Chuck sited this particular problem with D20 Modern, and I was nodding in the background having run into this myself. (Including presently, as I am making pregens for a gencon game). The problem with D20 Modern is that the characters are built as if skills are going to play a strong role in the system, but then they don't follow through by making non-combat activities appealing by amping up the skill system.

Wouldn't the solution then, be a combination of d20 Modern class structure combined with something along the lines of Spycraft's Dramatic Conflicts?

Maybe my idea is not a perfect solution, but I agree with your analysis - if skills & skill resolution was more important/interesting, you've gone a long way to fixing the disparity.

 

[Mokona]

June 26th Preview of Monte Cook's World of Darkness
Posted: 2007-06-26

Some people study academic subjects their entire lives. Others spend years learning acrobatics and practicing extreme sports. Still others divide their time between several fields of study. A character's focus represents her dedication to a field of interest. Four foci exist: Might, Intellect, Spirit, and Stealth.

Your focus has two effects: It gives you a bonus to an ability score relevant to that focus, and it determines which skills are easy for you (meaning which skills you can purchase at a low cost).

You choose a focus for your character at 1st level and gain the benefits of that focus. At each new level, you can change your focus or keep it the same. If you change your focus, you lose the ability bonus of your old focus and gain the ability bonus of your new one. Likewise, the skills of your old focus become cross-focus skills for your new level (though you do not lose the skill points you spent on those skills and their ranks do not decrease) and you gain new focus skills based on your new focus.

Focus - Ability - Bonus Skills

Might +2 Strength Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Demolitions (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Navigate (Int), Pilot (Dex), Repair (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex)

Intellect +2 Intelligence* Appraise (Int), Computer Use (Int), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Drive (Dex), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Int), Listen (Wis), Pilot (Dex), Repair (Int), Research (Int), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (none), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis)

Spirit +2 Wisdom Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Listen (Wis), Navigate (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), and Survival (Wis)

Stealth +2 Dexterity Balance (Dex), Demolitions (Int), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Hide (Dex), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex)

* This intelligence bonus does not grant extra skill points.

Example: Marcus is a 1st-level vampire, a football player with the dead soul of a 19th-century soldier. His player wants Marcus to be a strong "bruiser" character, so he selects Might as Marcus's focus, increases Marcus's Strength by +2, and spends skill points in various Might skills. In his first few adventures Marcus keeps getting spotted by guards, so when he reaches 2nd level he decides to change his focus Stealth to learn how to sneak around better. Marcus' player removes the +2 bonus to Strength from the Might focus and adds the +2 Dexterity bonus from his new focus, then spends his 2nd-level skill points in Stealth skills. Any points he spent at 1st level in the Might skills stay as they are — just because Marcus is trying to be stealthy now doesn't mean he forgets his previous training.

Is this something like how Modern 2.0 occupations will work? This could definitely be a great house rule (perhaps even in Star Wars Saga Edition) for the rest of us.

 

[Vigilance]

Is this something like how Modern 2.0 occupations will work? This could definitely be a great house rule (perhaps even in Star Wars Saga Edition) for the rest of us.

Sort of a similar idea, but a different way of doing it.

Military Officer
The military has taught you how to lead men.
Professional Skills: Firearms, Influence, Leadership
Improved Feats: Expert in your field (Leadership): your Reputation modifier is treated as +2 higher for purposes of this feat; Exploit Weakness: your Intelligence modifier is treated as +2 higher for purposes of this feat; Public Speaker: +2 Charisma; Teamwork: +3 bonus to attack rolls when working with your team
Occupation Specific Perks: Military Rank: your standing in the military makes it easier for you to deal with your fellow soldiers, granting you a +3 on all Influence checks when dealing with other members of the military and a +3 Reputation when requisitioning gear from military contacts.

So, you have three professional skills, which are always class skills for you as long as you stay in the occupation.

You have four feats that you can select regardless of class, that are improved feats for you, again as long as you stay in the occupation.

Then you have a special perk you can only select while in the occupation.

Your ranks in the profession's skills and the number of the profession's feats you have determine how big your Wealth bonus is from the occupation.

 

[jonrog1]

I snagged Monte Cook's WoD today, actually, and plowed through it. As described above, I rather like the "focus" aspect, serving as de facto classes, while the RACES are what we usually consider classes, with distinct "talent" trees -- and no multiclassing. It's very specialized to WoD, but expect that to be close to the racial variation in 4e I'd imagine.

I was wondering about yoru design style, Vigilance. Ar eyou just posting the stuff you want to get some feedback on, or are these actually the setions you're startign with and will fill in as you go?