d20 Modern: What Would you change part II

[Vigilance]

I'm getting some thoughts together. Here's some of my early thoughts.

Questions and comments would be welcome.

http://rpgdesign.blogspot.com/2007/08/modern-system-20-design-diary-1.html

 

[Psion]

When you are talking about ditching pre-adventure dice rolls, is that an allusion to chucking or at least seriously redefining the wealth system in some way.

If so, good on ya. I didn't get a whole lot out of The Game Mechanics' Modern Player's Companion, but the starting kits saved me a load of headache when it came to prepping characters.

 

[Vigilance]

Not just Wealth.

Craft checks, Knowledge checks and Research checks too.

You'll still have the same amount of options. Just less randomness in stuff that doesn't really matter to actual adventure.

 

[Arkhandus]

Umm, what? Well, I guess your blog post has a point, but I'm not quite sure how it'd work out ('specially since you have described yet what your plan is to get around the preliminary stuff). I'm also not sure that some people don't enjoy the planning and preparations for an operation, but it probably depends on the players and the op.


But, random aside: What D20 Modern needs is fixes to autofire, handling nonlethal damage/unarmed combat, and probably something to make action points more meaningful in impact.

D20 Future, well, needs even more, like less near-invincibility of mecha and starships, especially given the Unbalance Opponent feat and how it turns melee mecha into nigh-harmless pieces of superheavy armor (I'm finding out just how long it can take to resolve a mecha fight between two experienced PCs and some mooks or even fairly skilled opponents; one PC is nearly unhittable even outside his mecha, and hardly misses with anything but his last iterative attack, and the hardness of mecha and starships makes it take an awful lot to cause any real damage....; the problem is kinda exaggerated too, by the fact that the other PC's mecha is designed after Veritechs/Valkyries, so it has a starfighter mode as well as a mecha mode, and it's kind of hard/wierd to try explaining the drastic power boost and different systems of the starship form...).

I have less difficulty handwaving or speeding through anything else besides combat, than dealing with the problems that crop up in battle. Or with the invincible Kensei mecha I designed and put a skilled pilot in, to counter the PCs only to realize that I couldn't use it because they stood no chance whatsoever in a fight with it.....

 

[jezter6]

I'm getting some thoughts together. Here's some of my early thoughts.

Questions and comments would be welcome.

http://rpgdesign.blogspot.com/2007/08/modern-system-20-design-diary-1.html

First, I'm digging the theory behind the change. Not sure how it plays out in action, but it's a heck of an idea.

Along the same lines, Modern System 2.0 should use something like dramatic conflict from Spycraft 2.0. There should not be the 1 roll = failure for 100% of the dice rolls. When you need information FAST, and 1 failed roll means you wasted an entire day searching for it, it really sets the 'action movie' pace down to one of the most boring parts of the game: Rolling over and over until you get at least "x" on the dice. I kind of equate it to the random encounter table while travelling long distances. Watching our GM roll a hundred times over our journey was just boring and wasn't needed. Rolling (and rerolling) just to get a result that you would have continued to reroll until you got anyways shouldn't happen.

Also, I kinda like how Saga is doing skills. Now, I don't think EVERYONE should get 1/2 level to every skill, but I think some of the lamer skills that don't see action (climb, swim, etc) should either be 1) wrapped up into one physical skill or 2) everyone gets some sort of bonus in them. You either know how to swim or you don't know how to swim. And if you know how to swim, you either 'can swim' or 'are a great swimmer.' There's no need for the rank by rank granularity to the skill at all. My option there is to have a single skill or a skill group of 'everyday' skills that every HERO gets the 1/2 level (or some kind of) bonus to. Those include the standard stuff: Knowledge (Popular Culture), Swim, Climb, Fart, Knowledge (Geeky Roleplaying Games), etc. If at any point you call yourself a 'hero' - those skills should just be customary.

 

[Vigilance]

Umm, what? Well, I guess your blog post has a point, but I'm not quite sure how it'd work out ('specially since you have described yet what your plan is to get around the preliminary stuff).

Well, before you alter how the game works, and fix anything you perceive as a problem, don't you need to first figure out how the game SHOULD work and what you perceive AS a problem?

And before I propose anything like that, wouldn't it be nice to see where I was coming from?

So that's what the blog post was about.

Begin at the beginning. I'm trying to let folks know about the thoughts that have been bubbling around in my head, as someone who has run hundreds of modern games in all types of genres over the past few years.

I'm also not sure that some people don't enjoy the planning and preparations for an operation, but it probably depends on the players and the op.

Again, I'm not talking about limiting options. Enjoying planning and prep isn't the same as having each player make the same Research or Gather Information check in turn to try and gett a piece of key information.

I'm strictly talking about removing some of the randomness from non-critical parts of the game.

But, random aside: What D20 Modern needs is fixes to autofire, handling nonlethal damage/unarmed combat, and probably something to make action points more meaningful in impact.

I'll get to those parts of the game when I get to them. Again, begin at the beginning. I wanted to look at every aspect of the game and examine all of it. This is where I started, because the gamespace is the fundamentals that everything else is built on.

From there, I've moved into skills, because that seemed like the natural progression.

I have changed autofire and other aspects of combat in some fairly serious ways, because they do need work.

This blog post though, was basically about how I started on this process of doing something more comprehensive than a few limited fixes.

Sorry my blog post was more preliminary than you would have obviously liked it to be.

 

[Vigilance]

First, I'm digging the theory behind the change. Not sure how it plays out in action, but it's a heck of an idea.

Thanks!

I've really given a lot of thought to how the game plays and the sorts of things that slow the game down.

I basically came to the conclusion that the two things that slow down gameplay the most are die rolls and GM attention.

This is where eight lanes become one and everything queues up. If a player needs to consult the GM, get a DC set, roll a die and find out the results of his roll, that all requires time, and for me, that process isn't especially scintillating.

When you need information FAST, and 1 failed roll means you wasted an entire day searching for it, it really sets the 'action movie' pace down to one of the most boring parts of the game: Rolling over and over until you get at least "x" on the dice.

My thoughts exactly.

A Knowledge check, like most skill checks, is basically a yes or no question. Does my character know who the ruler of Wakanda is, yes or no?

Why do we need a die roll for that? Much less several?

I kind of equate it to the random encounter table while travelling long distances. Watching our GM roll a hundred times over our journey was just boring and wasn't needed. Rolling (and rerolling) just to get a result that you would have continued to reroll until you got anyways shouldn't happen.

Exactly. Just tell the player whether or not he knows, or even better, just have what he knows laid out on a table so the PLAYER can see if he knows the answer or not, then go from the there.

If the player really thinks he needs to know, he can try to find another avenue to that information.

Also, I kinda like how Saga is doing skills. Now, I don't think EVERYONE should get 1/2 level to every skill, but I think some of the lamer skills that don't see action (climb, swim, etc) should either be 1) wrapped up into one physical skill or 2) everyone gets some sort of bonus in them. You either know how to swim or you don't know how to swim. And if you know how to swim, you either 'can swim' or 'are a great swimmer.' There's no need for the rank by rank granularity to the skill at all. My option there is to have a single skill or a skill group of 'everyday' skills that every HERO gets the 1/2 level (or some kind of) bonus to. Those include the standard stuff: Knowledge (Popular Culture), Swim, Climb, Fart, Knowledge (Geeky Roleplaying Games), etc. If at any point you call yourself a 'hero' - those skills should just be customary.

I dig Saga. It's not OGC, but when I read it, I see the designers have had some of the same thoughts I did. It was interesting to read from that perspective.

It was like watching someone play a song you're thinking of playing, and seeing the choices they made.

 

[Psion]

Also, I kinda like how Saga is doing skills. Now, I don't think EVERYONE should get 1/2 level to every skill, but I think some of the lamer skills that don't see action (climb, swim, etc) should either be 1) wrapped up into one physical skill or 2) everyone gets some sort of bonus in them.

That's one thing I really dig about Spycraft 2.0 (True20 does something similar). Lots of people can swim, but how many players find it worthwhile to actually put points into it? Unless your game is explicitly like the exploits of a Navy SEAL team or the Clive Cussler novels, it normally comes up rarely enough that nobody is going to specialize in it.

But a generalized athletics skill that covers swim and climb, and extensible to handle other physical activities, players are more likely to put points into, and you don't feel like you are screwing the players if you face them with a swimming challenge. It does make the skill system less precise, but for actual play purposes, it seems to work pretty well.

 

[Greg K]

I agree with a lot that has been said-except for dealing with skills.

The SAGA and Iron Heroes (before someone mentions it) treatment of skills are actually deal breakers for playing either game with both groups with whom I game. As a GM, I don't so much mind having a fast NPC generation option that doesn't use skill points. However, as player, I detest what SAGA does with skills (the removal of skill points, half level bonus, and the combining of skills). I prefer to determine just how good my character is in a skill and don't want automatic increases just, because my character increases in level. The same goes for the Iron Heroes approach where classes can improve in a group of certain skills instead of having to buy each skill in that group indivdually just because they belong to a certain class.

 

[Greg K]

But a generalized athletics skill that covers swim and climb, and extensible to handle other physical activities, players are more likely to put points into, and you don't feel like you are screwing the players if you face them with a swimming challenge. It does make the skill system less precise, but for actual play purposes, it seems to work pretty well.

I never feel like I am screwing the players if I have to put them up against a swim challenge. If the character is supposed to be an able swimmer, than next time the player should take some of those bonus first level points and buy a rank of swimming instead of trying to max out several skills.