Daggers are AWESOME!

[ronin]

My last character used 2 daggers as his primary weapons. IIRC he was a rogue 3/ fighter 2/ swordsage 1/ invisible blade 5/ homemade PrC that basically gave 4 sneak attack dice similar to nightsong enforcer (I think) and some misc bonuses. The few things that helped with the damage were as follows-

- a war based campaign against alot of "sneak attackable" opponents
- the craven feat from Champions of Ruin
- the shadow blade feat from Bo9S
- the island of blades stance from Bo9S
- a pair of holy daggers

I always wanted to get assassin's stance but island of blades was working so good I didn't want to change stances. All I needed was to find an ally and be adjacent to an enemy and I was set. When I couldn't do this I'd either feint or use one of my few manuevers. I think the main two were distracting ember and cloak of deception.

I was almost always able to sneak attack and my average damage in the end was about 70 hit points a hit. I think in the end I was doing 1d4 + 9d6 (sneak attack) + 2d6 (holy) + 25 (craven + shadow blade) on a successful strike. Even when I couldn't sneak attack I was doing 1d4 + 2d6(holy) + 8 (shadow blade) which wasn't bad.

So, I never got to use assassin's stance but I highly suggest island of blades!

 

[Treacherous_B]

If you have a friendly DM and want to rock some cheese, the "Twin Knife Fighter" feat from AEG's Feats is pretty good. And by "pretty" I mean "definitely" and by "good" I mean "too good".

 

[MithrasRahl]

Nifft, since you're the resident knife expert, I was wondering if you had any suggestions for a knife character I'm about to start.

Lvl 5, 32 point buy, all races acceptable.

I'd ideally like 3 levels in Swashbuckler for the Int to damage bonus, and then a mix of Rogue/Fighter/Swordsage for sneak attack and the ability to get ShadowBlade as quickly as possible.

Any suggestions?

 

[Nifft]

Heh, I'm not all that much of an expert -- advocate, maybe.

My advice would be to not touch Swashbuckler at all! Just play a straight-up Swordsage focused on Shadow Hand weapons, with the TWF chain, and take a few ranged feats (since Daggers will be your only ranged weapon). Diamond Mind + Shadow Hand + Tiger Claw + Desert Wind (for Flashing Sun, which nets you an extra attack, and the extra Fire damage to your TWF full attacks).

Dump Strength, Int and Cha, and focus only on Dex, Con and Wis.

- - -

Alternately, take mostly Warblade, with two levels of Swordsage to get you two Shadow Hand stances and access to Shadow Blade. Dump Cha and Str, pump everything else. Warblade gets you Int to damage against flanked opponents; Swordsage gets you Island of Blades. Synergy. Again, TWF + Tiger Claw is great, but Warblades have access to Stormguard Warrior, so you can turn your flurry of little attacks into a single really big attack, especially paired with Diamond Mind strikes like Ruby Nightmare Blade or Diamond Nightmare Blade.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rechan]

I'm looking at these, and really what flicks my bean is an axe thrower.

Throwing Axe
1d6, Slashing, 10ft, x2 crit.
Dagger:
1d4, S/P, 10ft, 19-20/x2 crit.

Imho the variation between slashing and piercing just isn't worth the drop in damage die.

As an aside, a light hammer does the exact same thing as a dagger, except as follows: x2 crit, bludgeoning, 20ft range. A hammer thrower would just look interesting.

So I'm looking at either a human or a half-orc focusing on Brutal throw and handaxes. Mm.

 

[MithrasRahl]

My only problem is that I also need a lot of skill points in a wide variety of areas, since there is a lot of politics, back-alley intrigue, etc, in this campaign. I figured I'd go high Int and high Dex to get lots of skill points, and then get double bonus damage from Swashbuckler and Shadow Blade, as well as the Int to AC from Invisible blade later on.

 

[Mistwell]

My last character used 2 daggers as his primary weapons. IIRC he was a rogue 3/ fighter 2/ swordsage 1/ invisible blade 5/ homemade PrC that basically gave 4 sneak attack dice similar to nightsong enforcer (I think) and some misc bonuses. The few things that helped with the damage were as follows-

- a war based campaign against alot of "sneak attackable" opponents
- the craven feat from Champions of Ruin
- the shadow blade feat from Bo9S
- the island of blades stance from Bo9S
- a pair of holy daggers

I always wanted to get assassin's stance but island of blades was working so good I didn't want to change stances. All I needed was to find an ally and be adjacent to an enemy and I was set. When I couldn't do this I'd either feint or use one of my few manuevers. I think the main two were distracting ember and cloak of deception.

I was almost always able to sneak attack and my avergae damage in the end was about 70 hit points a hit. I think in the end I was doing 1d4 + 9d6 (sneak attack) + 2d6 (holy) + 25 (craven + shadow blade) on a successful strike. Even when I couldn't sneak attack I was doing 1d4 + 2d6(holy) + 8 (shadow blade) which wasn't bad.

So, I never got to use assassin's stance but I highly suggest island of blades!

I like your build. My rogue is about to take a level of swordsage, and the two maneuvers you mentioned are indeed two he will be taking (the one that provides a flanking elemental, and the one that provides improved invisibility for a round, in addition to the one that provides reach). I'm going in having already 4 levels under my belt providing level 3 initiator so I can take second level maneuvers as well, though my first stance will be the concealment one (and eventually assassin's stance) instead of island of blades since I use a reach weapon that is not compatible with island of blades. Still, your build is equally compelling. Very nice!

 

[Nifft]

My only problem is that I also need a lot of skill points in a wide variety of areas, since there is a lot of politics, back-alley intrigue, etc, in this campaign.

Swordsage with no Int bonus still gets 6 skill points per level, and has Intimidate & Sense Motive on his list. The only two skills you're required to take are Tumble and Concentration, so that leaves two more free -- so Knowledge (local) and Knowledge (nobility & royalty) for his last two, plus Knowledge (history) or just Hide if you're a Human.

With a pumped Wisdom and Sense Motive, you'll be hard to trick, though you won't be doing much trickery yourself either.

Maybe drop Intimidate and take Listen instead. Being able to overhear others could be very useful.

Anyway, if you're committed to Int, take a long hard look at the Warblade. He gets most of the benefit of being a Swashbuckler, but he gets other goodies too. And his skill list is decent, though you will want levels of something else too.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Thikket]

For a cute melee/thrown weapon alternative to hammers and axes and daggers and stuff, consider the club -- if you have access to a lot of shillelagh spells. 2d6+1 base damage, ranged and melee.
Edit: Hypersmurf pointed out that one interpretation of the shillelagh spell would preclude this damage being done for the ranged case, as the weapon leaves your hand, and is therefore no longer "wielded by you". I agree with that interpretation, so this tactic is less effective than I originally thought under that reading.


It's resource-heavy, but multiple shillelaghed clubs would make for an interesting thrower. Maybe Chain Spell on a high-strength Druid with ranged feats?

Also, an oversized club (-2 attack) can deal 3d6 base damage (+3.5 damage) with shillelagh. That spoofs a bit of Power Attack / Power Throw without needing feats, though it cuts out the possibility of TWF.

I guess you could probably wildshape into a Large animal like an ape and wield small oak trees (Huge (oversized) clubs). -2 attack, 4d6+1 base damage, melee and thrown.

Funny image, too.

 

[Rechan]

My proposed build has two main components:

• Power Throw (CAdv): Power Attack with thrown weapons, even if they are light.
• Knockback (RoS): Whenever you hit with a weapon while power attacking you get a free bull rush. You need not move with the target or take any action. You have to actually get some bonus from power attack, but you do not have to use a melee weapon to do so!

So, I can be a goliath who throws daggers with PA, and use that to bull rush at a range. Talk about a weird concept.

If you want to add Dungeon Crasher, you can get an obscene damage bonus.

So, my build:

Really Mighty Dagger Thrower: (Core, Complete, Dungeon Scape, Races of Stone)
Race: Goliath
Fighter 8

Fighter 1: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush Start out as a melee fighter.
Fighter 2: Knockback (RoS)
Fighter 3: Brutal Throw (CAdv)
Fighter 4: Dungeon Crasher (variant, DS)
Fighter 5: -
Fighter 6: Power Throw (CAdv), Quick Draw Switch to daggers.
Fighter 7: -
Fighter 8: Dungeon Crasher (variant, DS)

I think you did some miscalculations here.

Dungeon Crasher replaces a fighter's 2nd level and 6th level feats. You have it replacing his 4th and 8th level feats.