D&D 4E David Noonan on 4E "Cloudwatching" (Added Dave's newest comment from his blog)

[Horacio]

Agreed. Both are bad and fracturing the fan base.

I just think this is generating way too much passion.

I never liked the wizards boards anyways, and given what is said around here, I do not even want to come close. I might catch the "ugly green brain" disease.

Yeah, risking to fracture an already small fanbase, and even worse, risking to fracture a wonderful community like EN World

Hopefully spirits will calm soon... or at worse some months after May 2008

 

[Fobok]

Hopefully spirits will calm soon... or at worse some months after May 2008

Given what I remember when 3e came out, we probably won't see an end to the fracture until the books are out. I remember people swearing up and down that 3e would be the end of D&D as they loved it, that because 2e had lasted so long it was perfectly playable that no new update was needed. Oh, and that so many people obviously disliked 3rd edition coming, it was going to be a flop. (Sound familiar?) Then there were others swearing up and down that anything had to be better than 2e, and that it would be the best game ever. Neither side really calmed down about the other until after 3e was out, and even then there were some outspoken people who tried to carry the torch for months afterwards. The only real difference between then and now is there seems to be more people positive about 4e than there were about 3e.

Personally, I love all but two things I've heard about 4e so far, but I can see the reasons why others might not like the direction.

What I don't understand is why having a 4e exist seems to upset those who want to stick with 3.5. Why does 4e's existance diminish your 3.5e game? The books that are out now cover just about everything that you'd ever need to play, except perhaps published adventures. If they continued making 3.5e books we'd be inundated with repetitive and less and less interesting stuff.

I ask going the other way too. Why does the fact that some people dislike what they've seen before bother you? If you like it, buy the books and play it. What someone else is doing at their table who knows where, shouldn't really effect your enjoyment of the game.

 

[Shortman McLeod]

What I don't understand is why having a 4e exist seems to upset those who want to stick with 3.5. Why does 4e's existance diminish your 3.5e game?

Well, the obvious answer is that once 4e is released it will become increasingly more difficult to find people to play 3.5.

 

[Horacio]

Well, the obvious answer is that once 4e is released it will become increasingly more difficult to find people to play 3.5.

Unless 3.5e is objectively better than 4e, then they should have no problem.
So if 4e indeed sucks, as they think it will, they will be able to find players easily, as many 3.5e players won't like to change. No big loss then...
If they are sure 4e is worse, they shouldn't be worried

 

[Imaro]

Unless 3.5e is objectively better than 4e, then they should have no problem.
So if 4e indeed sucks, as they think it will, they will be able to find players easily, as many 3.5e players won't like to change. No big loss then...
If they are sure 4e is worse, they shouldn't be worried

I don't think everyone, whoose wary of 4e, reasons boil down to 4e will be worse. I actually think some of the negativity is based more on how WotC has chosen to handle certain thins as well as the choices they are making. I am wary of the per-encounter+action points+at-will abilities+racial traits+feats+per-day abilitiies resource management. I know how long a player can take to pick the right spell(especially at higher levels, and this seems to be the route WotC is going with all classes), so yes I am wary of this.

As far as negativity, I will freely admit the DI is my main source of negativity right now. Like the quotes above where the suggestions are made that "official updates and rules changes" are available to subscribers of DI so no need for 4.5, smacks of splitting the fan base along 3.0/3.5 lines all over again. And could end up being evenm worse as far as assumptions made by people with or without access when they sit down to game.

I am also turned off by the added fees they keep announcing and suggesting...
10-15 dollars for subscription
$1 per book to unlock PDF
unknown price to unlock(possibly random) minis for my tabletop.
unknown price for a gamer's page if I want to retain IP rights to what I post.

Now as of right now they claim the DI is unnecessary, but if they do post major rules revisions and changes to the game, it becomes, IMHO, much less so...and I would hate to see this type of bait and switch tactic. I just see alot of ways WotC can skirt the line between what is "necessary" or not.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Unless 3.5e is objectively better than 4e, then they should have no problem.
So if 4e indeed sucks, as they think it will, they will be able to find players easily, as many 3.5e players won't like to change. No big loss then...
If they are sure 4e is worse, they shouldn't be worried

What if 4e is good, and you prefer to play 3.5? It's not really even a question of which is better. It's a question of "oh, I'm probably never going to get to use half of what's in all the 3.5 books I bought in the past year, because 4e is coming and so it's going to be difficult to find 3.5 players--not only after it's released, but also in the lead-up when nobody wants to start a new 3.5 campaign, because they're planning to start a 4.0 campaign in just a few months."

I like 3.5. I want to continue to play 3.5. If I happen to not like the changes in 4.0, since they seem to be fairly idiosyncratic, but many other players do, I'm up the creek. If I want to play 3.5 for a while longer until I figure I'm done with it and then switch over, I'm up the creek. Players are a valuable and often rare resource. When 4.0 is released, they will stop being a renewable resource for 3.5 players.

 

[variant]

We will probably port at least one of our campaigns. The characters have been around since 2nd edition.

 

[Fobok]

What if 4e is good, and you prefer to play 3.5? It's not really even a question of which is better. It's a question of "oh, I'm probably never going to get to use half of what's in all the 3.5 books I bought in the past year, because 4e is coming and so it's going to be difficult to find 3.5 players--not only after it's released, but also in the lead-up when nobody wants to start a new 3.5 campaign, because they're planning to start a 4.0 campaign in just a few months."

I like 3.5. I want to continue to play 3.5. If I happen to not like the changes in 4.0, since they seem to be fairly idiosyncratic, but many other players do, I'm up the creek. If I want to play 3.5 for a while longer until I figure I'm done with it and then switch over, I'm up the creek. Players are a valuable and often rare resource. When 4.0 is released, they will stop being a renewable resource for 3.5 players.

Ok, I can see your point there. I haven't been able to find a D&D game since shortly after 3.5 came out, so I can understand. But, 4th edition is coming. Getting hostile at the people who are looking forward to it is more what I intended to ask about, since I was commenting to a 'division of the community' comment. Getting hostile to people who do like what they see won't make it any easier to find 3.5 players. In fact, it might make it harder.

I'm not saying I've seen you get hostile, but I'm more commenting about the others that were referenced in the earlier post. But, for example, if you were... I am looking forward to 4e, but that doesn't mean I'm any less likely to play 3.5. Heck, I still play D6 Star Wars despite the fact that I love Saga Edition. A game's a game, and enjoyable no matter the system. But, to continue the Star Wars example, if someone's being rude to me about the fact that I like Star Wars Saga, I won't want to play with them no matter the system.

Now, the Star Wars stuff brings out another good point, though, as to the 'never getting to use the books I bought'. The fan community has done a pretty decent job of converting stuff from D20 revised to Saga, and they are vastly different systems in much the same way 3.5 and 4e will be different. If it can be done for that, with no conversion guides that I've been able to find I'll add, it should be just as possible to do it to convert your 3.5 books that you haven't used to 4e.

 

[hong]

Well, the obvious answer is that once 4e is released it will become increasingly more difficult to find people to play 3.5.

What's life without a little adversity?

Mang, some people are just so videogamey.

 

[Najo]

The doom and gloom and negative attacks against the designers is just uncalled for and silly. These are the same people who've written all of that great 3.5 material you use. Give them a chance to show off 4.0 before you naysay them.

Game Design in theory can only improve with feedback and refinement as long as you have resources and competent designers. WOTC nor the deisgners want to lose customers. Sure they want more customers, but they do not want to lose those they have.

The facts are that the current 3.5 has rules gloat and intimidates new players, stifling the future survivability of the game. When power gamer D&Ders leave to go play MMOs and new players do not come in to replace them, there is problems. 4.0 looks like it is being made to correct that issue.

Overall, I am excited about the changes and I think the designers are doing a great job. Keep up the good work guys and don't let the naysayers get you down.