Definition of "ally who can see you"?

[Prestidigitalis]

My Swordmage just received a Pennant Helm, which gives a benefit to "each ally who can see you". I'd like to compile a list of conditions that would prevent an ally from seeing me, and those that would not, even though they seem kind of related. Please chime in if I missed something.

Prevents ally from seeing me:

- There is no line of sight between the ally and me, including because of magical effects
- I have been removed from the board, or the ally has
- I am invisible
- I am hidden from the ally via a Stealth check
- I have been swallowed or the ally has been swallowed
- The ally is dead/unconscious/petrified
- The ally is blind
- The distance between us is greater than my ally can see given lighting conditions and the ally's vision type

Does NOT prevent ally from seeing me:

- I have concealment or cover
- I am insubstantial or phasing
- I am shapechanged (e.g. via Druidic Wild Shape)

Not sure:

- My form is altered by a magical effect such as an illusion or transmutation imposed by an enemy, and in such circumstances that the ally has no way to know it is really me

 

[LightPhoenix]

Petrified makes you Unconscious, so by your definitions Petrified would cause the ally to lose line of sight.

 

[Mr. Teapot]

Some effects could remove you or an ally from play temporarily, which would deny LoS. Things like the githyanki silver sword or voidsoul genasi. "Removed from play" is a condition in the (online) Compendium.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Maybe I missed something but why isn't "line of sight" the only requirement? Every one of those conditions includes that. Don't make things more complicated than they are.

 

[DracoSuave]

Maybe I missed something but why isn't "line of sight" the only requirement? Every one of those conditions includes that. Don't make things more complicated than they are.

Becaiuse line of sight isn't the only requirement. If the ally cannot see for whatever reason, it totally counts.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Maybe I missed something but why isn't "line of sight" the only requirement? Every one of those conditions includes that. Don't make things more complicated than they are.

I don't know if I'm looking at the official latest revised rules, but I do have HotFK, and looking at page 69, I see that Line of Sight is defined entirely geometrically and with references to obstacles, but with no regard to the status of the sight-er or the sight-ee.

 

[OnlineDM]

I don't know if I'm looking at the official latest revised rules, but I do have HotFK, and looking at page 69, I see that Line of Sight is defined entirely geometrically and with references to obstacles, but with no regard to the status of the sight-er or the sight-ee.

Yes, that's what I see in the Rules Compendium as well. It's a little counterintuitive, but that's the way the rules are written. You have line of sight to something even if you're blind, apparently! That doesn't mean you can SEE it, but you have line of sight to it, technically.

 

[DracoSuave]

Line of Sight doesn't mean 'you can see it' it merely means, should you desire to do so, you could see that location from your location. You can have line of sight to an invisible creature's square. Obviously you can't see it. It's just a -line-. It's not -sight-.

Think of it like Line of Effect- It's not the definition of any effect, it's merely the line that determines what you can effect.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Line of Sight doesn't mean 'you can see it' it merely means, should you desire to do so, you could see that location from your location. You can have line of sight to an invisible creature's square. Obviously you can't see it. It's just a -line-. It's not -sight-.

Think of it like Line of Effect- It's not the definition of any effect, it's merely the line that determines what you can effect.

Right. As I said, it's defined as a geometric concept and nothing more.

So does anyone have any more suggestions or clarifications? Any comments on my "not sure" item? I'm also wondering how I should categorize "total concealment" and "superior cover" -- my additional reading makes me think the first prevents seeing but the latter does not.

 

[DracoSuave]

Right. As I said, it's defined as a geometric concept and nothing more.

So does anyone have any more suggestions or clarifications? Any comments on my "not sure" item? I'm also wondering how I should categorize "total concealment" and "superior cover" -- my additional reading makes me think the first prevents seeing but the latter does not.

Total concealment, yes. Superior cover, no. The reason for that is cover has naff all to do with Line of Sight and only deals with Line of Effect. Terrain that blocks both provides concealment anyways, so cover's involvement is not important in this.