Diplomacy +23 at 3rd level??? Help, my player must be wrong!!!

[Lord Pendragon]

Bluff is a buff skill. Even at level 7, one of my player's can Bluff another into believing stupid crap, even with bonuses to the Bluffed for stuff he/she wouldn't normally believe.

PCs can't use Bluff against each other. The player always decides what his character believes.

 

[CapnZapp]

4) Reading the Diplomacy description to the letter:
Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), or Sense Motive, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.

Since this is one statement instead of three separate statements (according to grammar rules), you only get one +2 bonus. However, if everyone starts looking at the grammar of the core rule books, the game is pretty much unplayable (thus, this argument is even worse than the one made above.)

This argument doesn't hold water. Look at the descriptions of each of the three skills:

If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sleight of Hand checks, as well as on Disguise checks made when you know you’re being observed and you try to act in character.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nobility and royalty), you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Sense Motive, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.

The rules clearly give a unnamed bonus for each of these synergies: you get three bonuses that clearly stack.

So you don't need to involve grammar to say that the example character get +6.

 

[buchw001]

As nhl_1997 pointed out, Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), or Sense Motive, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.

Based on this I would have to say the answer to your question is yes. Your player is wrong because of the "OR" in the sentence. However, it is only by a few points.

As others have also pointed out, I think you should be happy if the player is role playing these numbers. I personally would love to see some one use up some crucial stats and feats for something like this, as long as they played the character accordingly.

PCs can't use Bluff against each other. The player always decides what his character believes.

Is this a rule?

 

[buchw001]

Sorry CapnZapp must have been posting at the same time I was.

In any case, I would like to change my position to UNDECIDED based upon his/her post.

Since each skill is listed as giving the +2 bonus, I would say there is a clear conflict in these two rules statements.

However, I am leaning to the fact that the stacking should be allowed and the synergy discription should read:
"Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), or Sense Motive, you get a +2 bonus for each on Diplomacy checks.

empahsis mine

 

[BSF]

I play a high CHA, strong Diplomacy character. Big deal. Sure my character can make most people friendly towards him. It's a matter of getting them to listen. That friendliness is wonderful, but it hardly does anything beyond greasing the wheels. It isn't mind control. It gives him a strong bargaining position. It helps pry out a little more slack and maybe even advice, but it doesn't force an NPC to suddenly kowtow to the PC. You are just changing attitudes.

If a person you considered to be a good friend suddenly needed you to co-sign on a loan for a new corvette, would you do it? Well, you might. But you would probably consider things like your friends driving history and your opinion on how well he handles finances. You probably would not acquiese to your friends desire for a spiffy new car just beause you are friends.

So the PC with a +23 to Diplomacy at 1st level is very likable. That's really all it is. If the player is thinking that Diplomacy is some sort of charm/domination ability, then you should speak with the player about that assumption.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Wow. And the character can still do it on a 7 or better. By level 9, he'll never fail! Static diplomacy DCs = ba-roken?

He'll never fail, except against opponents who don't speak the language he's trying, or who are deaf, or are under some external mental control, or who (like an awful lot of monsters in an awful lot of adventures) don't have the intellect to communicate in the first place. Probably other stuff I didn't even think of off the top of my head.

I don't see the problem.

 

[Deset Gled]

PCs can't use Bluff against each other. The player always decides what his character believes.

Is this a rule?

No, it's metagaming.

 

[nhl_1997]

This argument doesn't hold water. Look at the descriptions of each of the three skills:

If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sleight of Hand checks, as well as on Disguise checks made when you know you’re being observed and you try to act in character.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nobility and royalty), you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Sense Motive, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.

The rules clearly give a unnamed bonus for each of these synergies: you get three bonuses that clearly stack.

So you don't need to involve grammar to say that the example character get +6.

I agree. At least two of the options I presented (and maybe three of them) are feeble attempts at best. However, as others have pointed out, it's up to the GM to determine in what situations synergy bonuses apply. The answer to that should be "almost always," but not always.

The fifth point I made is the most relevant. Does this break the game? In my opinion, if the diplomacy skill is handled carefully (and consistently,) then it shouldn't break the game. If however, it is breaking the game, work with the player to resolve the issue.

 

[Pielorinho]

Or, find a good house rule.

I want to second this: I think it's a fantastic reworking of the skill.

Briefly, it does the following things:
* Considers all diplomacy checks to constitute "deals" that the character is offering to another character;
* Takes into consideration the value of the deal that the diplomatic character is offering
* Takes into consideration the attitude the audience has toward the diplomat
* Takes into consideration the power level of the audience; and
* Takes into consideration the wisdom of either the audience, or of the audience's advisor.

Although there are numbers attached to all these things, it's very easy to wing the system, and it makes it so that you can never have "too much" diplomacy; instead, a higher diplomacy allows you to get increasingly powerful, increasingly wise, and increasingly hostile characters to agree to deals that are increasingly favorable to you.

Daniel

 

[Dog Moon]

My bad.

Originally posted by Lord Pendragon:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog_Moon2003
Bluff is a buff skill. Even at level 7, one of my player's can Bluff another into believing stupid crap, even with bonuses to the Bluffed for stuff he/she wouldn't normally believe.

PCs can't use Bluff against each other. The player always decides what his character believes.

Ah. Oops. I meant to say 'can Bluff another PERSON into believing stupid crap.' Guess missing that one word changed the meaning a bit. My bad.