Disappointment with high-level spells?

[Crothian]

So 9th level druid spells are actually pretty good at not being pure combat related. 8th level druid spells arne't so great for that, but then 7th level spells have a lot of neat non-combat ones again.

Except they don't feel or read like non combat spells usually. They seem like combat spells with non combat applications.

 

[LightPhoenix]

I think a big part of the problem is that you can do too much with lower level spells. If the "utility" spells were spread out a little more, I think that would put a little more wow into all of the spell lists.

The biggest example, IMO, is planar travel. Plane Shift should, IMO, be a ninth level spell. There really isn't much you can do as far as opening up new areas beyond planar travel. Makes things easier for DMs, makes it much more exciting for PCs. Heck, it's almost epic at that point - and that's what it should be. You're going to another plane of existance, and yet a Cleric can cast it as a fifth level spell? At the same level where a Wizard can teleport 900 miles, that you've seen before (admittedly less a drawback due to scrying)?

It's just goofy.

 

[Plane Sailing]

My biggest problem is it seems most spells are combat spells. There really needs to be some core spells that don't blow things up or cause damage and death.

It is instructive to compare 'commune with nature' in 3e with the version in 1e. Was the 1e one so overpowered that it had to be nerfed so much?

 

[Crothian]

It is instructive to compare 'commune with nature' in 3e with the version in 1e. Was the 1e one so overpowered that it had to be nerfed so much?

You lost me. I just want some spells that are not combat. No need for them to be over powered or aything. I would happy with balanced or even underpowered non combat spells. In fact since they are not combat spells I would imagine underpowered would be hard to judge.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

So what sorts of things would you like a druid to do at 9th level? Any of these ideas help?

Awaken Forest. 6d100 trees awaken and follow your commands.

Herd of Pachyderms. 4d12 Giant Elephants appear to trample your opponents.

Touch of Nature. 1 ally/level gains the pseudonatural template for 1 hour.

Call of the Wild. Up to ten creatures within range fall into a mindless rage for 1 round/level.

Wings of Eagles. You summon 2d4 Rocs to do your bidding for 24 hours.

Beast of Ill Omen. You awaken the Tarrasque from its slumber.

Call Cthulu. You summon an unspeakable horror from the briny depths.

Flight of Dragons. 2d4 adult dragons negotiate to do your bidding.

Nature's Call. One opponent within range feels an irresistable urge to be elsewhere, no save.

Move Mountains. You reshape the earth, moving up to 100 10' cubes of earth or stone per level.

Jarl of the Glacier. You cause a vast sea of ice to crush everything in a 200' wide by 5-mile long path.

Master of the White Palm. You create an oasis from empty desert sands.

Tsunami. A 50' high wave of water rushes in to shore drowning creatures and destroying man-made objects in its path.

Mountain of Fire. You awaken a long-dormant volcano.

Master of Seasons. You shorten or extend the current season by up to three months.

Create Wormhole. Up to 1 square mile of surrounding area is whisked away to another plane.

 

[Slobber Monster]

I think you're the first person to say that foresight doesnt suck, let alone is good. How on earth is a +2 to AC and reflex saves at all worth a 9th level slot?

The spell should actually provide some insight into the future. IE, you get told enemies actions beforehand or something.

Maybe we're reading this differently, but doesn't the spell description say exactly that?

Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. You are never surprised or flat-footed. In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself and gives you a +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

Are you considering that as merely flavor text perhaps?

This seems to me like a good spell in the hands of a reasonable dm. Unfortunately that's a difficult effect to create explicit mechanics for and the length of time it reaches into the future is not clearly spelled out. The only idea given in the description of how much forwarning is given concerns casting the spell on other people:

You must communicate what you learn to the other creature for the warning to be useful, and the creature can be caught unprepared in the absence of such a warning. Shouting a warning, yanking a person back, and even telepathically communicating (via an appropriate spell) can all be accomplished before some danger befalls the subject, provided you act on the warning without delay.

Communication is an immediate action, but I would normally say yanking someone (har har) is a standard action. With this as a guidline I would say seeing one round into the future is reasonable. In combat I would give notice to the caster on their turn of all planned enemy actions for the upcoming round which could affect them and give them assistance in devising a counter move which would have a chance at countering or minimizing the attack.

"The Balor 160 ft. away from you is going to grapple you with Telekenesis, fly closer and use Implosion. You might want to open up some distance so he'll use with Firestorm instead."

 

[Plane Sailing]

You lost me. I just want some spells that are not combat. No need for them to be over powered or aything. I would happy with balanced or even underpowered non combat spells. In fact since they are not combat spells I would imagine underpowered would be hard to judge.

Sorry, to clarify... 3e commune with nature is next to useless. It used to be an immensely flavourful spell with a number of uses.

I'm agreeing with you that there are too few spells that are not combat related, and making the point that one of the few noncombat spells was made less useful.

 

[Crothian]

Sorry, to clarify... 3e commune with nature is next to useless. It used to be an immensely flavourful spell with a number of uses.

I think the current version is pretty good. It can help locate animals for hunting, minerals to mine, water sources. And after reading the 1e version it doesn't seem much different.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

The biggest example, IMO, is planar travel. Plane Shift should, IMO, be a ninth level spell. There really isn't much you can do as far as opening up new areas beyond planar travel.

The next avenue is to blend it with other spells. astral projection is effectively plane shift plus a modified true resurrection. Wulf Ratbane had a recent thread on preserving the "sweet spot" of D&D longer. Wulf's definition of "sweet spot" ended at 10th level. I tend to agree.

High level spells are probably the biggest reason that the RPGA's Living Greyhawk campaign forcibly retires characters once they reach 16th level. But the problem LG has with high level magic seems to be different than the problem Ari has

 

[Piratecat]

I think the current version is pretty good. It can help locate animals for hunting, minerals to mine, water sources. And after reading the 1e version it doesn't seem much different.

Yeah, in my 26 years of gaming we've needed to do that at least... err... never.