Discussing 4e Subsystems: Retraining

[ExploderWizard]

I think the system does support character growth and development. Not as much as some games, but more than earlier editions.

My scary, hard-hearted fighter who finds peace with his demons might swap out Skill Focus: Intimidate for Skill Training: Diplomacy, going from Intimidate +9, Diplomacy +1 to Intimidate +7, Diplomacy +7.

This reflects my character's personal growth.

Thats a good way to look at it. The retraining rules as written are just too jarring and scream " I wanna make a new toon for this level and try stuff out" to me. At the same time I don't like a system with "class skills" that say that a fighter will suck at diplomacy simply because he is a fighter.
If that fighter wants to start learning diplomacy then he can be allowed to start doing so without instantly granting fully trained status or reducing his skill at intimidation.

The retraining rules are simply too coarse. The way they are implemented goes hand in hand with the ME ME ME NOW NOW NOW feel of the game.

 

[LostSoul]

If that fighter wants to start learning diplomacy then he can be allowed to start doing so without instantly granting fully trained status or reducing his skill at intimidation.

The retraining rules are simply too coarse.

I see your point. I will point out some stories work this way - someone makes a choice and bang, they change right there, using skills they'd never shown before.

 

[Lacyon]

Thats a good way to look at it. The retraining rules as written are just too jarring and scream " I wanna make a new toon for this level and try stuff out" to me. At the same time I don't like a system with "class skills" that say that a fighter will suck at diplomacy simply because he is a fighter.

Take the feat then.

If that fighter wants to start learning diplomacy then he can be allowed to start doing so without instantly granting fully trained status or reducing his skill at intimidation.

Does it also bother you that your attack bonus, skill increases, increased number/strength of powers/spells, hit points, and feat gains all must hit at the exact same moment in time (i.e., when you go up a level)?

If not, it's really hard to see how this could be a dealbreaker.

The retraining rules are simply too coarse. The way they are implemented goes hand in hand with the ME ME ME NOW NOW NOW feel of the game.

Just like the levelling system (as brilliantly mentioned by Mallus).

If it bothers you, maybe you should (re)instate training rules.

 

[Mallus]

The retraining rules are simply too coarse.

They can be, if you use them like that.

The way they are implemented goes hand in hand with the ME ME ME NOW NOW NOW feel of the game.

Then don't use them like that. Use retraining like LostSoul suggests.

I like that the designer's aren't telling you how you should be playing the game. Want to treat your character as a cartoon, like you say, or even as a mere playing piece? Fine. Want to have your character change only in response to significant (made-up) life-events, in a realistic fashion? Equally fine.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Take the feat then.

Feats do not begin to cut it. If characters are balanced by thier core abilities (powers) there is no reason that every class cannot opt to study any skill without penalty.

Does it also bother you that your attack bonus, skill increases, increased number/strength of powers/spells, hit points, and feat gains all must hit at the exact same moment in time (i.e., when you go up a level)?

If not, it's really hard to see how this could be a dealbreaker.

Not really. Any game with classes and levels have sudden leaps of improvement which are not realistic but are simply part of that process. Hotswapping is different.

Just like the levelling system (as brilliantly mentioned above).

If it bothers you, maybe you should (re)instate training rules.

As a player I will follow whatever the DM decides. When I DM I choose another system and that works fine.

 

[Thasmodious]

Take the feat then.



Does it also bother you that your attack bonus, skill increases, increased number/strength of powers/spells, hit points, and feat gains all must hit at the exact same moment in time (i.e., when you go up a level)?

If not, it's really hard to see how this could be a dealbreaker.



Just like the levelling system (as brilliantly mentioned by Mallus).

If it bothers you, maybe you should (re)instate training rules.

If it really bothers the CombustibleThaumaturgist, maybe D&D just isn't the game for him. As several of us have pointed out, these sudden, coarse bursts of change have always been a core component of D&D. Perhaps a White Wolf game would better suit someone with a problem with this basic principle of level play.

 

[ExploderWizard]

If it really bothers the CombustibleThaumaturgist, maybe D&D just isn't the game for him. As several of us have pointed out, these sudden, coarse bursts of change have always been a core component of D&D. Perhaps a White Wolf game would better suit someone with a problem with this basic principle of level play.

Nah. D&D works fine, just not 4E.

 

[The Little Raven]

" I wanna make a new toon for this level and try stuff out"

Changing a single trait per level does not a new character make.

 

[Lacyon]

Not really. Any game with classes and levels have sudden leaps of improvement which are not realistic but are simply part of that process. Hotswapping is different.

Given that it can only happen once per level up (and only at level up), I'd be more inclined to call it coldswapping.

Changing a single trait per level does not a new character make.

That too.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Feats do not begin to cut it. If characters are balanced by thier core abilities (powers) there is no reason that every class cannot opt to study any skill without penalty.

Class Skills are not a matter of balance. They are a matter of "theme" - or fluff.

Maybe it is one of the vestiges of "simulation" that someone that, well, Fights has a lot of Fightery skills like Athletics, Endurance or Streetwise, and not so many academic skills like Arcana, Religion or Dungeoneering per default.
After you picked your skills from the class skill list, you still have a feat left to gain a skill outside of your class expertise (and you have an extra feat and an extra skill left if you're a Human, and an extra skill if you're an Eladrin.) And that's just 1st level.