Discussing 4e Subsystems: Retraining

(It breaks my versimilitude to have a world where nobody ever gets rusty at anything.)

I can accept that, no problem. Getting rusty seems to be more worthy of penalties rather than a sudden denial of use though. And if a character actually used his old abilities sometimes why would he be rusty?

Its the binary nature of the rules that are so offputting. On or off, 1 or 0.
Its so cold and seems more like lazy design than anything else.

I like rules to make some kind of sense, even if the explanation involves the way magic works and is in no way "realistic" its better than a blanket: It works like this-you think up why something that nonsensical exists.
 

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Fallen Seraph

First Post
Well if the ability was still in use then it wouldn't be Retrained. In terms of fluff/world consistency Retraining would be used where an ability is no longer in use for numerous reasons.

What your stating would be more along the line of keeping the ability but adding feats, benefits to the abilities you use more often to show the difference there.
 

Well if the ability was still in use then it wouldn't be Retrained. In terms of fluff/world consistency Retraining would be used where an ability is no longer in use for numerous reasons.

What your stating would be more along the line of keeping the ability but adding feats, benefits to the abilities you use more often to show the difference there.

That, along with learning new skills and abilities-bingo!
 

Thasmodious

First Post
I like rules to make some kind of sense, even if the explanation involves the way magic works and is in no way "realistic" its better than a blanket: It works like this-you think up why something that nonsensical exists.

But they do make sense. Did you have a problem with spontaneous casters in 3rd? One of their core class abilities was retraining. Swapping out spells every few levels. To cover that necessary mechanic, an in game justification was easy - just the way magic works. It's no more a mental exercise to envision power replacement in game.

Let's use the fighter for an example. Lol, our fighter, reaches 15th level, where mechanically he replaces one daily power with a 15th level daily. He replaces Brute Strike, an exploit he has used since 1st level, with Dragon's Fangs, a power which essentially is two brute strikes. He does not tangibly "lose" Brute Strike, he has simply developed a better maneuver. If you are trying to kill someone, why would you do less damage then you are now capable of doing?

But Thas, you say, Dragon's Fangs is a fairly logical replacement for Brute Strike, its basically just the power improved, THAT at least makes some sense, but what if he went for something totally different?

Well, let's see - Unyielding Avalance Death - you've gained wisdom over your career (literally, by 15th level), and you've learned that such single minded attention to delivering big damage to a single foe often leaves you vulnerable. Your experience in such melees has taught you the value of being prudent and patient, so you discard some of your old ways in favor of a more refined, but no less effective technique.

Feats? Not much problem there either. A wintertouched mage drops the feat for raging storm instead, as he has chosen more lightning and thunder powers. Does this really require a stretch to explain? The studious mage has focused on mastery of a different area of elemental power. There are, of course, a few examples you can find where it might get a bit hairy. Someone takes Linguist and decides to dump it for Power Attack. The new tactic is easy to explain, they've been training, learning, growing. But losing three known languages? Well, as a couple people have already mentioned, anyone who took a language in High School and never had much occassion to use it has long since lost that skill. Mine was German and all i can do these days is count to 10, drop a bit of foul language, or tell someone 'I shot my brother'. "Infernal? I haven't spoken that since you've known me, with all we've been through, no, I really barely remember a word. I think the runes on that door say something about saurkraut, no that can't be it..." As a DM, in that circumstance, I would give the PC a +2 to Insight to use his barely remembered smattering of Infernal to understand what the dread beast is telling the party.

In game justification requires only a very minor flexing of your creative muscle, if your group even requires it. It's not like the concept of in game justification for mechanical systems is something you've never had to do before if you play D&D (and it matters to you). Magic has always required this creative muscle reflex, we're just used to it, it's an accepted part of the game.

The mechanical need for the system is there and justifying it in game is cake, just like you do, and have always done, any number of other things - HPs, spells, knowledge of effects or conditions, etc.
 

Lacyon

First Post
I wasn't going to scour and reproduce powers or compare names to find the exact ones that are extensions of earlier ones so just used a simple example relating to the real world.

The thing is, for the vast majority of the cases where you actually did scour and reproduce powers, somebody would come up with a reasonably acceptable explanation on in response and post it on this board (for at least some peoples' definitions of reasonable).

When you just post random stuff like this, well of course your example doesn't make sense. It just doesn't match anything in the actual game very well, so doesn't help move the discussion very well.

Technically speaking, they are classified as at-will powers in the game, and can thus be retrained via paragon multiclassing...;)

Ha ha :yawn:

I can accept that, no problem. Getting rusty seems to be more worthy of penalties rather than a sudden denial of use though. And if a character actually used his old abilities sometimes why would he be rusty?

Its the binary nature of the rules that are so offputting. On or off, 1 or 0.
Its so cold and seems more like lazy design than anything else.

I like rules to make some kind of sense, even if the explanation involves the way magic works and is in no way "realistic" its better than a blanket: It works like this-you think up why something that nonsensical exists.

I would very much rather not have a single rules explanation for all retraining. I'd also very much rather not have a million explanations, one for each possible retraining instance.

4E leaves nearly all of the game-world-level detail to the playgroup. I totally grok that some people really don't like that, but I'm finding it to be oddly freeing.
 

FireLance

Legend
How difficult would it be for a DM to institute a house rule that a character can only retrain an ability if the player can come up with a good in-game explanation?

It seems that there are only objections to certain applications of the retraining rules. I doubt anyone would be concerned if a character swapped a power for what is basically an improved version of that power.

I suppose it is fundamentally a philosophical issue of whether you prefer a more restrictive set of rules which individual DMs may free up, or have a freer set of rules which DMs may restrict.

I personally prefer the latter approach, as I want the rules to tell me what is mechanically balanced. I can then impose flavor restrictions, or not, as I wish.
 

But they do make sense. Did you have a problem with spontaneous casters in 3rd? One of their core class abilities was retraining. Swapping out spells every few levels. To cover that necessary mechanic, an in game justification was easy - just the way magic works. It's no more a mental exercise to envision power replacement in game.

No problem with spontaneous casters at all. No spell swapping was used either.
 


Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
Interestingly enough, Wizards are still a major culprit for my own issues with retraining, since your spell actually vanishes from your spellbook to get replaced by another.
Yeah, the spell book is my only issue with multiclassing. The idea of a spell book that systematically deletes itself is absurd, except in an OotS/Discworld-esque game. Oh, wait, nevermind. Still absurd!

So I invented a nifty house rule that removes a PC's ability to retrain powers, but lets him/her keep old powers and even learn new powers. I don't force my players to use it though; and any PC can use it so as not to give PC wizards a [perceived] big advantage. It works on the slot system so all it does is add to a PC's versatility.

TS
 

yesnomu

First Post
Retraining is awesome. I don't worry about the justification in-world-- we're talking about a game that has effing levels here. Where beating enough kobolds with a stick turns you into a demigod. Who the heck cares about the logistics of retraining?

But yeah. I hardly ever used Ray of Frost, and I wanted something at-will that didn't provoke. So I took Thunderwave instead. I don't have to ask permission like in 3.5, it's just a part of the game. It makes the game more fun for me, and it takes some of the sting out of a bad choice from inexperience. Sounds like a winner.
 

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