D&D 5E Disintegrate Vs. Druid

[Pssthpok]

I don't think that's necessarily the case. You're instantly being healed, so you're not at zero hit points, even though you were reduced to zero hit points.

Reverting to your own shape after wildshape drops to 0 hit points is not healing. It's an interrupt. You never lost your own hit points, so you're not being "healed" when you switch from wildshape hp back to your own pool.

 

[seebs]

The phrase "remove their own trigger" is misleading. Reactions and other such effects "interrupt" their triggers. You can cast shield and still get hit, for instance.

By this logic, you can get reduced to 0 hit points in wildshape and the moment when you revert to your own hit point total can be seen as an interruption of the normal steps invoked upon reaching 0 hit points. In fact, that's almost exactly what it is.

Same with disintegrate. Disintegrate is the trigger, which the wildshape reversion interrupts, thereby denying it the "at 0 hit points" trigger unless the remaining damage, per the wildshape rules, is enough to reduce the druid to 0 hit points in their true form.

Basically, disintegrate can't invoke it's "reduce to ash" trick until a) the target is reduced to 0 hit points from the damage dealt and b), the spell is done dealing damage. Effects that interrupt the damage of the disintegrate spell don't trigger the "reduce to ash" trick.

Okay, this argument makes some sense to me. So, here's a possible counterargument: What if the dust effect is also "an interrupt", that bypasses the normal process of applying damage? Think about how it worked in 3rd edition. An attack other than this which merely reduced you to 0hp hadn't even reduced you to "dying" yet; you were still conscious and could take actions (although doing so could cause you to start "dying"). But disintegrate has a special rule, and the moment you hit 0hp, the normal process is interrupted and you are dusted.

So my reading of the disintegrate spell in 5e would have been the same; if you are reduced to 0hp, there is an interrupt and you are dusted instead of continuing with damage application as normal.

But now we have two interrupts, and it's not obvious how to resolve that. There's no general rule I can find on what to do when multiple things proc off the same trigger. Consider what happens if you polymorph someone into a half-orc, for instance. When they hit 0, do they get to use the half-orc racial, or do they revert?

And the answer is "we don't know".

 

[Pssthpok]

seebs,

Disintegrate isn't interrupting itself to turn the target to ash. It's dealing all of its damage and then the target, if they're left with 0 hit points after the hit, is dusted.

Since druid wildshape interrupt procs off the wildshape being dropped to 0, which could happen well before disintegrate has dealt its total damage, it seems clear that the reversion happens before the dusting.

 

[seebs]

Reverting to your own shape after wildshape drops to 0 hit points is not healing. It's an interrupt. You never lost your own hit points, so you're not being "healed" when you switch from wildshape hp back to your own pool.

The term "interrupt" isn't present in the rules, and I don't see anything making the wildshape reversion more interrupt-like than anything else involved.

I agree that it's not healing, but it doesn't really matter; there was a point at which you were at zero hit points.

 

[seebs]

seebs,

Disintegrate isn't interrupting itself to turn the target to ash. It's dealing all of its damage and then the target, if they're left with 0 hit points after the hit, is dusted.

This is one way of running it, but there's nothing there saying "left with 0 hit points after the hit".

Since druid wildshape interrupt procs off the wildshape being dropped to 0, which could happen well before disintegrate has dealt its total damage, it seems clear that the reversion happens before the dusting.

It may seem clear to you.

I put it to you that when you have a thread with many people offering wildly different interpretations of a thing, it may be reasonable to conclude that it is not "clear" after all.

I don't think it's clear. I think that the designers have confirmed that their intent was that wildshape's form-reversion would win out in this case, but that doesn't seem to me at all the same as it being "clear".

 

[Maxperson]

Reason tells us that the orc/barbarian abilities, the new monk ability from SCAG, Wild Shape, etc. do not have the character actually die/fall unconscious and then heal, but that the special ability removes its own trigger, just like the shield spell.

The orc and barbarian abilities explicitly use language that does indeed cause them to remove their own triggers. They use the word "instead". Wild shape explicitly does not. It uses language that says that if/then language. It is clearly a sequential ability and not one that removes its own trigger.

You are not using reason when you say that it removes its own trigger. At least not any reason based on the language used. You are creating a house rule that alters how wild shape works.

 

[Maxperson]

Disintegrate isn't interrupting itself to turn the target to ash. It's dealing all of its damage and then the target, if they're left with 0 hit points after the hit, is dusted.

Not according to the spell. The spell says none of that.

 

[dmnqwk]

@Orethalion What happens if a wild shaped druid is reduced to 0 by disintegrate? Does he revert to normal physical form?
[MENTION=4036]Jeremy[/MENTION]ECrawford The intent is that a druid using Wild Shape is disintegrated if the druid, not the beast form, drops to 0 hp.

From the thread concerning "some recent tweets" I'm just glad that the intent is made clear that only if the druid drops to 0hp, not the beast form. I am glad the game designers didn't intend people to be foolish and penalize the system for using lower health forms instead of the old method of adding bonus temporary hit points when a druid shapeshifted!

So I guess since the intention is now clear we're stuck arguing about "unclear rules" that we'll never agree on!

 

[Maxperson]

@Orethalion What happens if a wild shaped druid is reduced to 0 by disintegrate? Does he revert to normal physical form?

[MENTION=4036]Jeremy[/MENTION]ECrawford The intent is that a druid using Wild Shape is disintegrated if the druid, not the beast form, drops to 0 hp.

By RAW, since ash is not a change in form, he would revert to normal ashed form. Form is only what race you are, not what condition that race is in. That's why Crawford spoke about intent there, rather than giving a ruling on what happens.

The designers being human didn't notice the extremely unlikely situation where the druid in wild shape gets hit by a disintegrate, and failed to have RAW account for RAI in that situation.

We know what RAI is, but what is written doesn't match that.

 

[dmnqwk]

We know what RAI is, but what is written doesn't match that.

Rules clearly say druid reverts, you haven't provided any evidence but your own interpretations. Please provide evidence that clearly follows the rules RAW that shows the druid is disintegrated. I've shown you it does not but you disagreed, so please provide your own proof.