Divine Challenge at the end of your turn

[Saeviomagy]

Okay, I've reversed position yet again . I think y'all are right: the intent of Divine Challenge is too easily gamed if you don't have to do anything special on the round in which you issue it.

Daniel

I'm not quite sure I understand - what sort of gaming is going to happen and why is it bad?

It just seems to me that challenging a target who is 5 squares away in order to encourage him to stop killing your friend and come get you instead seems very paladinlike, while (for instance) throwing javelins from the other side of a 20 foot pit isn't.

 

[AverageTable]

It just seems to me that challenging a target who is 5 squares away in order to encourage him to stop killing your friend and come get you instead seems very paladinlike

When you describe it like that, yes it does sound "paladin-like".

But read my post above. The problem is that if you permit the Divine Challenge ability to be used in this way, the paladin doesn't need to engage any target he challenges. Ever. He's basically free to hop and skip around the battlefield like a little girl, goading enemies into chasing him but never actually turning to face them. This, I'm sure you'll agree, is extremely un-paladin-like.

 

[Xorn]

I'd say the challenge fails. You need to attack the target or move adjacent before the end of your turn. I don't think this is unfair, either:

A fighter must attack the target they want to mark, every turn they want it marked.
A paladin must attack the target they want to mark, or stay adjacent to it.

The paladin can stand next to their mark and attack something else--the fighter can't.

 

[Pielorinho]

But read my post above. The problem is that if you permit the Divine Challenge ability to be used in this way, the paladin doesn't need to engage any target he challenges. Ever. He's basically free to hop and skip around the battlefield like a little girl, goading enemies into chasing him but never actually turning to face them. This, I'm sure you'll agree, is extremely un-paladin-like.

Yep--this is it. The paladin in question was being grabbed by an ant, and saw another ant bothering a friend of his. The player knew he couldn't go attack that other ant (being grabbed and all), but wanted to hinder it, so he DCed that other ant, not intending to go attack it at all, but simply trying to mess it up (in order to attack him, it'd need to take a move action, thereby suffering multiple Opportunity Attacks). He then kept beating on the ant that grabbed him.

It was everyone's first 4e combat, done mainly to test out character powers, so I don't fault the player at all for trying that out, but for the next session, I'll make it clear that someone challenged must be attacked or be adjacent every round, including the round that the challenge is issued. (I will, of course, allow a paladin to attack an opponent and THEN challenge it during the same round; the challenge needn't come first. Indeed, this is probably the best order of events: if your attack kills the opponent, you don't want to have wasted your challenge on it.)

Daniel

 

[Wish]

This, I'm sure you'll agree, is extremely un-paladin-like.

I can build a paladin whose personal ethos is a complete disregard for others. She can kill, steal, and betray for personal gain. Her word is meaningless. There's no such thing as "unpaladinlike" in the brave new world of square circles. I bet it was a chaotic evil paladin that exterminated all the druids, and drove the gnomes into hiding, in fact.

 

[Bagpuss]

That "or challenge a different target." seems to only add confusion and I can't see why it is there.

Assuming you challenge a different target you go back to the top of reading the power.

Minor: "You mark the target. The target remains marked until you use this power against another target, or if you fail to engage the target (see below)."

So you get to the engage bit and read...

"On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target."

Well if you have any minor actions left you could challenge another target I suppose but then you need to start reading from the top again. Eventually you are going to run out of actions to challenge other targets and in that case you have to engage the target on your turn. In which case you read the rest.

"To engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can’t use divine challenge on your next turn."

So there is no way you can have a challenge up against a target you haven't engaged.

 

[Dizlag]

To further your example, Pielorinho, if the move-attack actions killed a DC'd enemy and a paladin wishes to DC another enemy, I would allow it. Even if the DC'd enemy didn't die and the paladin wishes to DC another enemy he's not adjacent to, then I would allow it as well.

The third paragraph in the "Effect" section is very clear about this. You either engage a target or challenge a different target. To engage you either need to attack it or end your turn adjacent to it. If none of these happen, you loose the ability to DC an enemy for a turn.

In the above example, if on the next round the paladin didn't engage the enemy or mark a different target, then he would loose his ability to DC for a turn. You'll have to make a judgment call as a DM if your player is maneuvering around the battlefield like a girly-man challenging the enemy. If he is, deny him the DC ability for a turn.



Dizlag

 

[Bagpuss]

To further your example, Pielorinho, if the move-attack actions killed a DC'd enemy and a paladin wishes to DC another enemy, I would allow it. Even if the DC'd enemy didn't die and the paladin wishes to DC another enemy he's not adjacent to, then I would allow it as well.

The third paragraph in the "Effect" section is very clear about this. You either engage a target or challenge a different target. To engage you either need to attack it or end your turn adjacent to it. If none of these happen, you loose the ability to DC an enemy for a turn.

In the above example, if on the next round the paladin didn't engage the enemy or mark a different target, then he would loose his ability to DC for a turn. You'll have to make a judgment call as a DM if your player is maneuvering around the battlefield like a girly-man challenging the enemy. If he is, deny him the DC ability for a turn.



Dizlag

Why are you allowing it on the next turn?

You've said that the in the previous paragraph that the text is very clear you have to attack or end adjacent to a target on your turn, the turn you challenged it.

 

[Dizlag]

Bagpuss,

I was writing my last post when you posted yours and upon reading your post, I've changed my view here. I agree with you that the text -- "or challenge a different target" -- is confusing and shouldn't be there. The bottom line is you have to engage a challenged target on your turn to get the benefits out of it.

Thanks for the clarification.

Dizlag

 

[AverageTable]

Well if you have any minor actions left you could challenge another target I suppose but then you need to start reading from the top again. Eventually you are going to run out of actions to challenge other targets and in that case you have to engage the target on your turn.

As a minor note, the complication of challenging multiple enemies until you run out of actions is already avoided by the rules.

Near the bottom of the Divine Challenge power it explicitly states that you may only use it once per turn anyway. So once you challenge even a single enemy on a given turn, you must engage that enemy by the end of that turn or suffer the consequences.