DM advice needed - my party one-round BBEG's

[biktin]

I ran the first four books of both Runelords & Shattered Star in one campaign in 5e; PCs went from 1st to 18th though only one was there for the whole thing. http://smonscurseofthecrimsonthrone.blogspot.com/2017/10/ep-64-22-3064713-ar-on-mokmurian.html

I don't recall any major issues - some boring static dungeons in Shattered Star, especially Book 4. The PF stats convert to 5e very easily, and 5e has far fewer I Win buttons. About the most I added was a couple of summoned owl bears to the final battle with Mokmurian, mostly an excuse to use my owlbear minis!

I generally increased hit points and damage by +50% from Pathfinder numbers, while AC was typically divide by 2 & add 5.

I've used a few converters, but it takes a while and actually I've found re-skinning existing monsters to be fun and quick. For example the Wyverns in Fortress of the Stone Giants were swapped with elder shadow drakes from tome of beasts.

I'm finding the AP a bit too combat-oriented for my taste but to be honest my players (mostly) prefer that.

 

[biktin]

There's some debate on it. To the best of my interpretation, it should be impossible to sneak past someone who is looking at the open space you are trying to pass through. If the BBEG is in a room that only has one entrance, and someone is looking at that entrance, then surprise is ruined when anyone tries to enter the room.

The wizard would argue that he would incant his spell before coming into view and then immediately cast it once he moved and had LOS, surprising them. Mind you, he has argued that the number 0 is an even number before, so I generally take him with a pinch of salt

 

[The Crimson Binome]

The wizard would argue that he would incant his spell before coming into view and then immediately cast it once he moved and had LOS, surprising them. Mind you, he has argued that the number 0 is an even number before, so I generally take him with a pinch of salt

Unless the wizard's head is invisible, anyone looking through the door will see him before he has line of sight. If he sticks a mirror around the corner, and tries to aim with that, then they'll be alerted as soon as the mirror comes into their view.

If he can see them, then they can see him, unless he's invisible or they are not looking in that direction.

 

[ZenBear]

I’ve been having similar issues in my games. D&D is pretty rocket-tag as it’s normally balanced, so I skew my monsters to have higher Defensive CR and lower Offensive CR to mitigate this.

Also, your players are 10th level. They ought to be well known heroes by now with a few bards singing their tales in taverns all around the realm. Surely some of your villains will have heard of them and their preferred tactics, so it wouldn’t be too meta to have your BBEGs prepared for them.

 

[Quickleaf]

I'm having issues making fights memorable for my players because they're just a bit too efficient at killing...

The party:- 5x level 10 characters , an evoker wizard, war cleric, paladin, ranger/rogue, monk. They don't really min/max (except the cleric).

The issue:

The party have figured out a combination of "stealth & focus fire" tactic. So if they feel they are about to meet a BBEG the ranger will cast Pass Without Trace and the party will attempt to stealth. They are generally pretty good at this, with just the cleric and pally letting the team down on occasion with their clanky armour.

Once they stealth in, they tip toe into the BBEG's room/lair and initiative is rolled (the it's not-a-surprise-round round). They are generally rather well DEX based and can often do pretty well in initiative. But that's almost besides the point (I think) because:- they can deal A LOT of damage in that round.

They focus on the BBEG and unleash armageddon. Silence or Spiritual Guardians might get laid down around the BBEG. If the BBEG survives the ranged attacks, the Pally will lay the smack down with highest level smites available. Legendary BBEG's fair a little better since they can use legendary actions/saves. However, if the wizard or pally get a crit... dead BBEG. With the BBEG dead, they mop up the mooks easy peasy.

This is worst if they use the stealth tactic, but even if they fudge that, they can pretty easily one-round a 200HP creature.

It's really cool that the party can get to be bad-ass, but unfortunately it's also a total anti-climax for them. The party love it when they get through by the skin of their teeth - they talk about it for weeks afterwards. When they one-round the foe they've been chasing down for the past 3 months (human time), it's a forgettable and disappointing experience.

Has anyone got any tips to provide the challenge and entertainment without negating/nerfing their tactics?

Wow.. what a response! Thank you for all your great suggestions and intelligent discussion. I'll try to cover as many as I can.

Yes, this has happened when the party have had a full rest. The last time they had rested because they were so totally worn down - no spells, very low HP. They had spent time setting up and ensuring perimeters etc. To be honest, I could have disturbed their rest with a couple of mooks and that would have been a TPK. In that instance they were level 8, and the encounter was 1 x Stone Giant Dreamwalker, 2 x Stone Giants.

We're making our way through Rise of the Runelords, and they're just finishing up the fourth. Actually, funnily enough the fight for BBEG of that adventure went pretty well, even though they were full health. (Fight was, reskinned Storm Giant Quintessant as BBEG with a few added abilities + 2x CR5 Ogre zombies, BBEG gated at 25% health to a different portion of the fortress with 2x CR10 Guardian Nagas (also reskinned), although I had to tone down the Nagas a touch as it was pretty obvious that was a bit OTT (I only used spells up to 3rd level). Also, they didn't get the drop on that guy since he had alarm wards etc in place. again, they had had a full rest but again that would have been a one-round TPK if he had as much as sniffed at them before they had rested.

More often than not I tend to use monsters from Tome of Beasts re-skinned more often than not. They seem much more challenging than MM monsters, which the party seem to steam roller (they seem to have very low HP to me).

I'll be writing up (well, converting) their next adventure today so I will take a lot of these points on board for that.

Great details. OK, looking at the encounter that gave you problems... the one with 1 x Stone Giant Dreamwalker and 2 x Stone Giants...

You said the (at the time) 8th level party had just been severely worn down recently... that indicates to me that a change up in pacing was welcomed by the players after the grind they'd just been through.

You said they established a perimeter watch and were fully rested when they had the encounter.

By the numbers, this was a just barely deadly* encounter. "Deadly", according to the DMG just means that it "could be lethal for one or more player characters; survival often requires good tactics and quick thinking, and the party risks defeat." Sounds like they had good tactics and possibly quick thinking? And the stone giants didn't get to take advantage of their Stone Camouflage?

If you compare the encounter (worth 11,700 adjusted XP) to the DMG's recommended daily adventuring XP for the (at the time) 8th level party, that recommendation is 30,000 XP (i.e. 6,000 per PC). Which makes this encounter valued at about 1/3rd of their DMG recommended daily adventuring XP. Not really surprising that the fresh PCs would mop the floor with that group of stone giants.

The only time I've run stone giants was once during AD&D and once during 4e, but even back then I always kept a few hidden (to emerge halfway through the fight) and I tried to include rockfall/avalanche hazards which the stone giants were highly resistance to.

 

[Nailen]

I'm having issues making fights memorable for my players because they're just a bit too efficient at killing...

The party:- 5x level 10 characters , an evoker wizard, war cleric, paladin, ranger/rogue, monk. They don't really min/max (except the cleric).

The issue:

The party have figured out a combination of "stealth & focus fire" tactic. So if they feel they are about to meet a BBEG the ranger will cast Pass Without Trace and the party will attempt to stealth. They are generally pretty good at this, with just the cleric and pally letting the team down on occasion with their clanky armour.

Once they stealth in, they tip toe into the BBEG's room/lair and initiative is rolled (the it's not-a-surprise-round round). They are generally rather well DEX based and can often do pretty well in initiative. But that's almost besides the point (I think) because:- they can deal A LOT of damage in that round.

They focus on the BBEG and unleash armageddon. Silence or Spiritual Guardians might get laid down around the BBEG. If the BBEG survives the ranged attacks, the Pally will lay the smack down with highest level smites available. Legendary BBEG's fair a little better since they can use legendary actions/saves. However, if the wizard or pally get a crit... dead BBEG. With the BBEG dead, they mop up the mooks easy peasy.

This is worst if they use the stealth tactic, but even if they fudge that, they can pretty easily one-round a 200HP creature.

It's really cool that the party can get to be bad-ass, but unfortunately it's also a total anti-climax for them. The party love it when they get through by the skin of their teeth - they talk about it for weeks afterwards. When they one-round the foe they've been chasing down for the past 3 months (human time), it's a forgettable and disappointing experience.

Has anyone got any tips to provide the challenge and entertainment without negating/nerfing their tactics?

Have a Glyph of Warding that casts Spike Growth* if the party fail to make a secret hand signal, or say the passphrase.
It's not much, but will burn up time and maybe a couple of spell slots to disarm, or dispel the spikes.
*or your preferred AoE spell.

 

[Blue]

The wizard would argue that he would incant his spell before coming into view and then immediately cast it once he moved and had LOS, surprising them. Mind you, he has argued that the number 0 is an even number before, so I generally take him with a pinch of salt

This makes sense. Knowing they are there, having the spell prepped ahead so they pop their head out and use their reaction to cast. Same thing as an invisible character stabbing with a dagger. While the attack makes them visible, but they still have advantage for that attack. Same here.

 

[Blue]

I see from other comments that the party was fully rested when they went into this. In that case, this is the working-as-designed result of the mechanics.

Now, escaping afterwards with everyone alerted and blowing a lot of their resources may be more of a challenge. I'd suggest combining several other encounters in waves as they rush to the sounds of combat.

 

[GMMichael]

I'm having issues making fights memorable for my players because they're just a bit too efficient at killing...Has anyone got any tips to provide the challenge and entertainment without negating/nerfing their tactics?

Don't put them up against BBEGs. Use BBWs instead.

Bossy
Beautiful
Wimp

These are your typical lords, ladies, or merchants with lots of influence. Your PCs can fight their way up to them, so you can still use a dungeon or a lair for them to fight through. But all of their damage-dealing skill is for naught, because killing a BBW doesn't accomplish your mission; it just lands you in legal trouble or installs the BBW's successor. Let the PCs use their worst stats - their social skills - to try and win over the BBW. The challenge will seem immense since they're not rolling their highest numbers for it.

You carefully step over the graveyard of bodies you've just created to reach the red-glowing, evil door. Before you cast Break Enchantment, the glow goes away and a butler politely opens it. He gestures inward, where you see a comfortable, opulent dormitory. Within, a child sits at a desk, signing writs. "The lady-in-exile will see you now," says the butler. "And if I may, thank you for disposing of that barbarian ogre-mage tribe. They were refusing to negotiate another contract with us, and I was not looking forward to delivering bad news to them."

 

[André Soares]

The wizard would argue that he would incant his spell before coming into view and then immediately cast it once he moved and had LOS, surprising them. Mind you, he has argued that the number 0 is an even number before, so I generally take him with a pinch of salt

for him to prepare his spell he has tu use an action to prepare the spell, hold concentration on it and cast it before his next turn, using his reaction to do so, if all these requirements are not fulfilled, or the concentration is lost, the spell fizzles out. disrupt him once and he will think twice to use that argument again