AaronOfBarbaria
Adventurer
As usual with issues of this sort, my opinion can be summed up as "What [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] said."
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D&D 5E DM question: Should I take it all back?
- Thread starter DormanII
- Start date
ChrisCarlson
First Post
Reminds me of the conclusion of one of the longest campaigns I ever ran. It was AD&D. The Cliff Notes version is that the elven wizard chose in the moment to save his human knight friend from imminent death at the hands of one of the arch villains rather than stop the epic, world-shaking ritual of ultimate doom. Defiant to the end, even though the ritual had been completed, as the ultimately powerful energies were in the process of being released, the wizard decided to break the arcane glyph circle (which was peppered with numerous artifacts it was actively draining of their powers). So I blew up the world. End of game. It was an awesome finale.
Years later, we decided to play Dark Sun. Same players. I created a campaign around the idea of a mysterious and powerful, ancient elf preserver living in an isolated green oasis. The PCs end up working for this strange, scarred old magic-user who mumbles about "the time before" or some such. Their job eventually became to scouring the bleak, broken desertscape for ancient, arcane knickknacks the old man needed to complete some obscure, powerful spell. That was the bulk of the campaign's theme.
It wasn't until the needed items were all gathered for the ritual, and we were nearing the end of this campaign, that the wizard explained the PCs' final task. The time travel spell would send them back to many centuries earlier, before the breaking of the world. Their mission was to stop the young version of him from screwing up by allowing a powerful ritual to be completed which would destroyed the world as he knew it.
Needless to say, the looks of the players' faces, when they realized their new characters had to go back and stop their old characters from the last campaign ending the world, was truly priceless. One of my finest 'big reveals' in my decades long DMing career. And especially the player of the elf wizard who realized his old PC was their new benefactor all along. Good stuff.
Years later, we decided to play Dark Sun. Same players. I created a campaign around the idea of a mysterious and powerful, ancient elf preserver living in an isolated green oasis. The PCs end up working for this strange, scarred old magic-user who mumbles about "the time before" or some such. Their job eventually became to scouring the bleak, broken desertscape for ancient, arcane knickknacks the old man needed to complete some obscure, powerful spell. That was the bulk of the campaign's theme.
It wasn't until the needed items were all gathered for the ritual, and we were nearing the end of this campaign, that the wizard explained the PCs' final task. The time travel spell would send them back to many centuries earlier, before the breaking of the world. Their mission was to stop the young version of him from screwing up by allowing a powerful ritual to be completed which would destroyed the world as he knew it.
Needless to say, the looks of the players' faces, when they realized their new characters had to go back and stop their old characters from the last campaign ending the world, was truly priceless. One of my finest 'big reveals' in my decades long DMing career. And especially the player of the elf wizard who realized his old PC was their new benefactor all along. Good stuff.
Last edited:
WarpedAcorn
First Post
I can completely relate to your situation DormanII. When I was running games in High School I had absolutely ZERO reservations about TPK'ing my players when they made bad decisions. Now, I would rather find ways to keep the story going despite a failure on the player side of things.
Firstly, you don't need to go back on the outcome of events. You gave yourself an excellent window due to the Spirits demanding a high price (yet to be named). This gives you a lot of creative freedom to find ways to impose penalties or restrictions on your players as a consequence of the failure.
Secondly, if your group is ok with TPK's, they might actually be the type of players that enjoy rolling new characters. They might already have their backups in mind. If that's the case, old characters can be written off OR shelfed while new characters tackle a different part of the story arc. They might also dig if their old characters are somehow incapacitated and the new characters are somehow tasked with freeing them. It could create for some interesting narratives.
Firstly, you don't need to go back on the outcome of events. You gave yourself an excellent window due to the Spirits demanding a high price (yet to be named). This gives you a lot of creative freedom to find ways to impose penalties or restrictions on your players as a consequence of the failure.
Secondly, if your group is ok with TPK's, they might actually be the type of players that enjoy rolling new characters. They might already have their backups in mind. If that's the case, old characters can be written off OR shelfed while new characters tackle a different part of the story arc. They might also dig if their old characters are somehow incapacitated and the new characters are somehow tasked with freeing them. It could create for some interesting narratives.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
You still have the price which must be paid. Make it worse than death and grant them a different wish later that allows them to undo the first wish. 
ccs
41st lv DM
Yes, you ,should discuss the situation/options with your players.
Personally though? I'd just end this campaign here. Why?
Because without your fudging etc, the game played out to a specific conclusion. And everyone knows it. So anything that'll come next is pretty much just an illusion.
I'd just pronounce the campaign finished, take a week or so off, & then start something new.
And this time don't fudge any dice rolls etc.
Personally though? I'd just end this campaign here. Why?
Because without your fudging etc, the game played out to a specific conclusion. And everyone knows it. So anything that'll come next is pretty much just an illusion.
I'd just pronounce the campaign finished, take a week or so off, & then start something new.
And this time don't fudge any dice rolls etc.
Rabbitbait
Grog-nerd
A TPK is a good way to prepare players for the next campaign. It means that they know that you are not messing around and that they actually need to think through the consequences of their actions, and that they can get into situations where the best option is to run away.
A TPK makes future campaigns better as it adds that tension that they actually might die.
However, a TPK should always be the result of player choices or bad rolls. If a party has been railroaded into a TPK situation then that is just not fair.
A TPK makes future campaigns better as it adds that tension that they actually might die.
However, a TPK should always be the result of player choices or bad rolls. If a party has been railroaded into a TPK situation then that is just not fair.
Aenghus
Explorer
Just a word of caution, even if the players say they are ok with failure, player morale will still be affected and players may have hidden reservations. I have learned that you can't always take player feedback literally, it needs to be monitored over time, and player actions compared to player statements. Sometimes players don't realise the depths of their feelings on a topic until later.
Secondly, it may be that there is an issue in your players misreading your game and consistently making the wrong choices. Few players enjoy this, so it may be that there are thematic or genre mismatches between you and some of your players. It's worth talking about so it's possible for the players to try and avoid such resolutions in future unless they want them. Maybe they don't have enough info to make informed choices, maybe they can't remember it with play gaps, maybe they don't care about the details, and the details kill them. You can't force players to care about the things you the referee care about.
If there is such a mismatch it might call for a compromise so the players have less opportunity to make the wrong random choice and blow up the world yet again. Personally, I always want my PC to have opportunities to research what the right things to do are *before* the dramatic confrontation.
Secondly, it may be that there is an issue in your players misreading your game and consistently making the wrong choices. Few players enjoy this, so it may be that there are thematic or genre mismatches between you and some of your players. It's worth talking about so it's possible for the players to try and avoid such resolutions in future unless they want them. Maybe they don't have enough info to make informed choices, maybe they can't remember it with play gaps, maybe they don't care about the details, and the details kill them. You can't force players to care about the things you the referee care about.
If there is such a mismatch it might call for a compromise so the players have less opportunity to make the wrong random choice and blow up the world yet again. Personally, I always want my PC to have opportunities to research what the right things to do are *before* the dramatic confrontation.
AaronOfBarbaria
Adventurer
I agree with your whole post save a single detail, quoted here.
This statement I almost agree with, I just think that it should be player choices and bad rolls that result in the TPK in all circumstance outside of the players collectively and deliberately choosing "My character commits suicide" because even when a player choice leads to a situation that is basically suicide (like "Yeah, we fight that ancient red dragon we've been hearing rumors about for a while, so what that we're 3rd level right now!"), the dice rolls going heavily in their favor might pull their characters through it (or at least keep them alive long enough to make a different choice).
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