DM tips - what makes a good DM?

[Piratecat]

Try to say "Yes" when players want something. If it makes your DM senses uncomfortable, go for "Yes, and..." so that you take their idea, but weaken it or apply something else to it. If it's too outragous, try "No, but..."

Right. This is the best advice you'll ever get on DMing.

It's not easy at first, but the results are wonderful. And if there's ever any sort of rules conflict, my default is "what's going to be the most fun for the players?" Mind you, that doesn't mean it necessarily gets decided in a way that is easy for the PCs, but I always default to whatever is coolest.

Regarding your NPC? Try using less powerful NPCs that the heroes could beat up if they wanted to. Make them important politically, or just nice guys, instead of physically powerful. Then always think about the consequences for what the heroes do. It's possible that an exciting story starts as soon as they ignore your planned adventure and kill the guy giving it to them.

An example: Okay, your PCs have just ganked the person giving them their mission. You're panicked and angry. What to do?

Well, you could throw guardsmen at them to try and arrest them. That doesn't usually end well. A niftier solution might to have them immediately designated heroes. He turned out to be very famous, very evil, and very wanted by the law in a nearby country. The PCs get a parade and public celebration. Then all this guy's former colleagues show up seeking retribution... and what if it wasn't really him? Why is he wanted? Are the heroes being set up, and if so, why?

Figure out what your players expect, then turn it sideways. Keep them on their toes. They'll love you for it.[/spoiler]

 

[Myth and Legend]

This is very helpful, thank you all. About making NPCs not as powerful, so that the group could kill them - I am not a fan of that. Just like in real life, there should always exist someone who you should not attack if you have a brain.

If the PCs can go around killing *everyone* or threatening them that's unrealistic. Every tough guy has a tougher guy he's afraid of. Sure, they can kill an important quest giver - and then, they would face some more important (and a stronger NPC). They kill him too, they gain notoriety. And then an epic level NPC comes and splatters them.

Honestly, that's the only ting i would be adamant about. I would allow any book, class, flavor, race, spell and feat, even if they are borderline broken (well no infinite actions or pun-pun), if they are fun for the players. But i would not allow them to feel like wolves among sheep - there always exists someone stronger than you that will not like it if you mess up his plans.

 

[Piratecat]

Sure, but they're heroes. Well, assuming they aren't evil. Heroes are, by definition, cooler than the people who surround them. Always having powerful NPCs who can push them around if necessary isn't necessary or desirable, in my opinion. For one thing, the players will start asking why the NPCs don't fix the darn problems themselves... This was the Forgotten Realms problem in 2nd edition D&D, a great campaign with what many people thought were too many powerful NPCs.

My point was also that there are lots of reasons not to attack someone, that have nothing to do with whether they're physically tougher than you are. Maybe they're popular in town. Maybe they know the local crime boss, or the mayor. Maybe they're the best cook in town, and everyone will be pretty darn mad if you hurt them. And maybe they know something you can't afford to lose.

You'll certainly want some NPCs who are more physically powerful than the PCs, of course. There's always a bigger fish. I just wouldn't necessarily closely involve them with the PCs' lives until there's a story reason to get 'em involved.

 

[aboyd]

Always having powerful NPCs who can push them around if necessary isn't necessary or desirable, in my opinion. For one thing, the players will start asking why the NPCs don't fix the darn problems themselves...

That's odd. I so easily hand-waved this. I think I just said, "They're busy. They delegate." And it never came up again.

Clearly, people like your campaign, Piratecat. So it's working. I just can't quite get my head around it, as I've never had difficulty shooting off in the other direction. In fact, having many NPCs who are brutally stronger than the PCs has helped me to avoid difficulties.

Different strokes, and all that.

 

[Bumbles]

This is very helpful, thank you all. About making NPCs not as powerful, so that the group could kill them - I am not a fan of that. Just like in real life, there should always exist someone who you should not attack if you have a brain.

While this is true, one thing you may not be understanding is why that's a bad solution to get into the habit of choosing.

It risks making the game unfun. Seriously, do you want your players to be bludgeoned into doing whatever your Uber-NPCs say because of their power?It'd be like making a save or die roll. Some of the worst games I've been in have had that sort of thing, and I realize now why that was unfun for me. Oh wow, something bad happened, I rolled a one. I died. How inspiring.

I never played with that guy as the GM again. Ever. I just wasn't inspired to try some more. And just a few weeks ago, I was observing a game where somebody else was GMing, and he had this NPC he was trying to overpower around one of his players. This led to an argument that the GM was breaking the rules by having somebody far too powerful, and lead to a bit of a blow-up.

Not inspiring either. He asked me what I thought about it, and I told him, I thought his mistake was getting his NPC into a fight with the PC. A much better way to handle it would have been something else, like an earthquake, being accosted by another NPC, or almost anything BUT a fight.

Yes, your concern about the PC's potentially going on a murderous rampage is a problem, it does happen, but if it does, then you may have a more fundamental problem, like a basic incompatibility between what you want and what they want. In which case, throwing bigger and meaner NPCs than they can handle at them won't work. They'll just complain that any time they want to do something "fun" you drop somebody on them like a 100-ton plot device to smash them like a bug.

There was a Knights of the Dinner Table Comic once, where BA (the DM) tried to prevent the players from going off the road by having the trees so thick and dense it was impassable. What happened? Well, the players insisted on cutting down the trees...you can imagine what a problem it was. If I'd been there to advise BA, I'd have suggested he have them run into something interesting or useful instead of trying to put up a wall. Like a bandit camp...with a map to somewhere marked with an X.

 

[Woas]

Say yes, or roll dice.

 

[Doug McCrae]

With the uber-powerful NPCs, I think it depends on what they're doing. If they are all in their secret hideouts doing secret stuff, not a problem. But if they are constantly getting in the PCs' faces saying, "Do this or I'll kill you" or, worse, acting as GMPCs, travelling with the party, defeating all the foes and solving all the mysteries, then that's a problem.

It sounds like the 18th level NPC Myth and Legend mentions is fine, as he's only giving the PCs a quest.

 

[Bumbles]

Yes, but he wanted ways to get them to take up the quest without throwing the NPC in their face and forcing them.

 

[Myth and Legend]

Yes i want to find a balance (and this is a hypothetical situation, with the 18th level NPC and all.) I always hated two dimensional villains or heroes, the former always acting like schoolyard bullies ("do this or i'll kill you" "har har give me your items/gold" or "i'll raze this village to the ground, because i'm EEEEVILLL") and the latter being Mary Sue characters that would sacrifice themselves for anything and anyone.

I would certainly *not* be trying to pick a fight with the PCs or force them to do anything - i agree with that. All that i'm saying is, if they do decide to start killing important NPCs (not necessarily *good* NPCs but even ones of an Evil alignment can be of use if they show no malicious intent towards the group) they will have to face the consequences.

Another example, the group has accepted a quest and already is on their way, traveling at night trough the city. They encounter a woman who is very charismatic and eloquent, albeit somehow emanating a dark aura and making the good characters feel uncomfortable. (DM - a Vampire with character levels and slightly buffed CHA). She offers them aid if they side with her an not the original NPC (who may or may not be evil in alignment).

So if they decide to kill her on the spot, her mate will come looking for them and demand an explanation. Mind you, he will still not be attacking on sight, but he would want their assistance as retribution. They attack again and kill him as well. This is ok, as they are presumably loyal to the first NPC.

But if they decide to later swindle both parties and/or ambush and slaughter everyone the NPCs will take action. It is quite unrealistic to assume that everyone but the PCs is a moron and can be taken advantage of and/or killed with ease. Heroes yes, but all-powerful? Certainly not.

Thank you all for these replies you have helped me a lot.

 

[Umbran]

A big event has happened nearby and the main NPC wants to send the group to investigate. He is way way above their level (think 4 7th level PCs, one 18th lvl NPC) and obviously a threat should they decide to attack him and loot his shiny gear. Similarly, they could refuse the job, but the town doesn't have that much else to offer apart from caravan guarding or vermin extermination (way below their level quest-wise). How could i steer them in the right direction should they prove stubborn, without throwing this NPC in their face and forcing them?

How would I deal with it? I wouldn't. If the PCs don't want to investigate something, then they don't investigate it. Later on, as that thing they ignored develops, it may well come back to bite them on the butt. This goes especially in play-by-post, as the game goes so slowly. You don't have the problem of having a bunch of folks sitting at your dining room table with nothing to do if they don't grab your plot hook. You can have hours to come up with something else for them to do if they choose to pass on your offering.

Note that in the above scenario (as far as you've described it) the NPC seems to be there only to punt the PCs into the action. Otherwise the NPC is superfluous. So, do away with him. Instead, have the PCs witness events related to what you, the DM, have prepared. Players usually don't like being given orders, but they love to jump into the fray.

(If, for example, a Thieve's guild has stolen the Crown Jewels, you could have the local Duke call on the PCs to investigate. Or, you could have them blunder into the middle of another robbery - the thief they catch is a coward, and is willing to give them a hint that something bigger is up if the PCs let him escape with his life.)

Or, if you really must have an NPC involved, have it be one weaker than the PCs - someone seeking aid in something they cannot accomplish themselves. Allow them to choose to engage for their own reasons, rather than feel forced to do it.