D&D 5E DMG - breaking bounded accuracy already?

[Jaelommiss]

I think that all these situations are missing the real benefit of bounded accuracy. Suppose a seventh level party going against a dragon. Now that dragon will have minions working for it. Kobolds would seem appropriate. With bounded accuracy a dozen kobolds will entirely change a dragon fight instead of being a mere annoyance to worry about after the dragon is dead. Having the flexibility to use creatures that make sense instead of searching the MM for a level appropriate monster that will end up being out of place is a huge bonus when creating encounters.

I can concieve no reason why a dozen kobold/commoner/orc arrows/daggers/axes stop being capable of piercing flesh merely because the target has gone up a level. A world where everything weaker than you mysteriously vanishes would be a strange place indeed.

 

[ingeloak]

I've just got my copy of the DMG and have had a flip through it. One of the things I noticed was that there are various magic items - Books, Tomes, etc - which increase stats. That's great, but they also increase the stat maximum, which IMHO is dreadful. Do you really want a Str 26 Con 26 Barbarian? Not that I'm happy with the +4 the Barbarian gets to Str & Con anyway. I'm assuming that you can't apply more than one to each stat - if you can, the sky's the limit for stats and Bounded Accuracy goes right out of the window.

this is easily solved, even if you don't want to house rule something. if they can only be used once per century, many if not most characters will be retired or dead by the time that is a problem. for those not afraid of house rules, these books only work once per character, then become non-magical, or they disappear to be found by the next lucky adventurer. finally, you can simply not include them in your game if you think there is a problem.

A fighter with +3 plate, +3 shield, Defender sword, ring of protection and defensive fighting style has an AC of 18+3+5+3+1+1= 31.

31! come on nothing is bounded in this game.

you need to check your math. granted, you could equip all those items, but the bonuses are off. Defender only gets as high as +3, at the cost of all the to-hit bonus. so if Mr. Fighter wants to be a turtle, so be it. but all that defense comes at a cost. he has no to-hit bonus beyond proficiency and Strength. and all that AC is rendered worthless with a spell or power requiring a saving throw instead of a to-hit roll.

 

[Fanaelialae]

the problem with mobs is not inherently that they exist...the problem is they are obvious timesinks/resource drains in the worst mmo ways. they don't present a challenge from a play perspective and offer nothing in the way of satisfaction when you win or lose. and the numbers don't have to be this high. try 20 ranged low level creatures with initiative vs a 10th level party in need of a short rest (maybe a random encounter). the numbers start swinging heavily towards the creatures if they are hitting and become real groaners if the party is missing.

and what makes these mobs interesting? nothing. from an immersion pov low level mobs should exist (because mechanically you can't just ignore them)..but the impact they can have heavily skews their importance. and d&d is a ttrpg not an mmo-grinding thru mobs is super lame and dull. but the math of the game makes the mob almost a necessity for a dm. again, single high cr creatures get mowed down (numbers win the day..the party as mini mob) so the dm needs mobs...

but what if high cr creatures could actually hold their own and didn't need mobs. and the players were powerful and weren't fighting mobs but instead were taking on powerful creatures in interesting fights...sort of sounds like d&d to me.

I guess we see things very differently. I don't see mobs as timesinks or resource drains, at least not any more so than fights against a single high CR creature. There are ways to easily beat mobs (AoEs, funneling) just as there are ways to easily beat single creatures (save or suck).

I once played in a campaign, where we played an elite squad of space demons invading a planet overrun by zombies, and most of the fights were against hordes (50 - 200) of zombies. I'll grant you, there were a few boring fights (IME, every campaign has a few) but the vast majority were nail biters. We were rarely certain that we could win the fight, and that made winning all the more exhilarating.

In sufficient numbers, they definitely present a challenge from a play perspective. A well coordinated legion can be deadly. Their front-line fighters engage you, while polearm wielders and archers attack from a safe distance. You can group yourselves together to limit their attacks, or attempt to penetrate their front line to decimate the softer targets in the back. Tactics matter, and may well decide how the party fares depending on the challenge posed.

The numbers will always start swinging heavily towards the enemy if the party is missing and the enemy is hitting. That's true whether you're fighting a group of soldiers or a single dragon.

As to MMO-grinding, I played Warcraft for quite a few years and typically you wanted to take on the highest level solo creature you could handle, because that's where you get the best loot and XP. Taking on lots of weak mobs was generally only desirable if you happened to be grinding for a special drop they had.

An intelligently played high-CR creature can be quite dangerous to the party. Admittedly, if the dragon throws himself against the heavily armored fighter, while ignoring the squishes in the rear who are pelting him, he's going to go down like a chump. Because the DM played him like a chump.

Two sessions ago I very nearly TPK'd a five man 5th level party with a warlock and his invisible stalker. Admittedly, not solo, but two does not a mob make. When the smoke cleared, three PCs were on the ground dying (one a single death save away from death) and the other two could have only taken one or two more hits before being downed.

You don't need mobs to challenge a party, but bounded accuracy means that if you want to, you can.

 

[Paraxis]

you need to check your math.

Pretty sure my math is spot on.

granted, you could equip all those items, but the bonuses are off.

No the bonuses are perfectly fine.

Defender only gets as high as +3, at the cost of all the to-hit bonus. so if Mr. Fighter wants to be a turtle, so be it. but all that defense comes at a cost. he has no to-hit bonus beyond proficiency and Strength.

Yes, that is kind of the point of the defender sword, but see monster AC doesn't scale up to the limits that PC AC does, so your high end monsters are usually within the 18-22 AC range. The fighters +6 prof, +5 ability score, +party buffs is more than enough to deal with that.

and all that AC is rendered worthless with a spell or power requiring a saving throw instead of a to-hit roll.

That is true but it is always true, saving throws are a different topic, we are talking about bounded accuracy being broken as it pertains to AC in this instance. If you want good saves, read a bunch of those plus ability score books or get one a like a half dozen items that give you advantage on your saves.

Look I like 5e, but it is not a mechanically math well done game, it has flaws, accept it, bounded accuracy was a goal and they thought they could just phone in the work on magic items and not account for them. They failed reaching a design goal because they didn't care, doesn't make it a bad game just not a great game where math and balance come first.

 

[Parmandur]

Why would they need to balance against something that, as pointed out above, cannot happen as written? The DM and fellow players would have to collude to allow such a combo, and nothing can balance against DM fiat.

 

[Hussar]

[MENTION=13009]Paraxis[/MENTION] - I believe he was pointing to the part where Defender swords top out at +3, meaning you're maxed at 29 AC, not 31 (which is what you listed). Not a huge deal, but, still a smidgeon less than what you said.

I'm thinking that's pretty meh either way. You're talking about a 20th level character that has laser beam focused on drilling his AC as absolutely high as he can.

At that point, an Adult Red Dragon (1st thing I saw when I opened up the Basic DMG pdf), a CR 17 creature, has a +14 to hit, meaning he's still hitting on either a 15 or 17 depending on whose math you want to use. And that's without any modifiers at all. Hardly breaking anything is it? And, after a quick skim, it appears that anything CR 8 or better can still hit this character, although, certainly not easily (generally needing a 19 or so).

At no point is the character completely out of reach.

I'd say that's a pretty decent win for the math column. When the best you can do still won't take you out of danger completely, and, in doing so, massively reduces your offensive capability (after all those legendary and very rare items, you're not carrying much else), and leaves you completely vulnerable to any sort of Save attack, I'd say that they did a pretty darn good job of covering the bases.

 

[Paraxis]

[MENTION=13009]Paraxis[/MENTION] - I believe he was pointing to the part where Defender swords top out at +3, meaning you're maxed at 29 AC, not 31 (which is what you listed). Not a huge deal, but, still a smidgeon less than what you said.

Plate = base AC 18, +3 magic bonus = 21
Shield = base AC +2, +3 magic bonus = +5
Defender Weapon = +3 magic bonus
Defensive fighting style = +1 bonus
Ring of protection = +1 bonus

Grand total AC = 31

In fact there are other items that could add another +1 to AC if you wanted for a grand total of 32, but I would save my last attunement slot for a cloak of displacement or one of the grant advantage on saves vs magic items.

 

[Mouseferatu]

...and all of this can be found in the new 1-20 adventure path "Against the Commoners."

Help! Help! I'm being oppressed for 8 (2d4+3) damage!

 

[ingeloak]

it is up to the DM how he or she wants to run their game. i have made some initial mistakes regarding prematurely high character stats (i let them roll on a generous dice method) and had to correct it. i now have a house rule that no PC can have higher than an 18 score even after racial and feat mods are applied.

i discovered that a cleric with a 20 wisdom out of the gate and the right feat could never be surprised or ambushed (passive perception of 23 i think it was) and saw every secret and trap without trying. he was a walking radar platform. that took the challenge out of the game so i asked for stats to be rerolled. the players were not enthused, but they did it. some of them actually came out better the second time. the game moved forward and a good time was had by all.

it is up to the DM when rolling magical items for treasure how much to give out, which items should be given out, and when/if the players get something. as a rule i do not allow purchasing items in a shop. i have since relaxed this slightly, allowing a couple of minor uncommon items, scrolls and potions to be bought from curio shops, temples, and small-time local wizards. if your fighter gets all that stuff, its because the DM allowed it. same with those stat-raising books.

Two sessions ago I very nearly TPK'd a five man 5th level party with a warlock and his invisible stalker. Admittedly, not solo, but two does not a mob make. When the smoke cleared, three PCs were on the ground dying (one a single death save away from death) and the other two could have only taken one or two more hits before being downed.

You don't need mobs to challenge a party, but bounded accuracy means that if you want to, you can.

nicely done . my friend told me about an old module with not 1, but 7 vampires in it with their assorted minions and spawn. i find the idea of doing that module in 5th terrifying

 

[ingeloak]

edit: condensed posts into 1.