DMs are too easy on their players

[Arkhandus]

(chuckles)
Adversarial DMing?
I know a little bit about that. Let me tell you what Adversarial DMing truly is.
Now, tell me more about Adversarial DMing ...

Yes, I've played in one or two games that were remarkably similar to some of your examples. But I have the good sense to avoid sticking with a DM who just wants to waste my time. I have no need to stay at a table where the DM arbitrarily seeks ways to slaughter PCs early every session and then laughs at the player for their 'misfortune'.

I already admitted there are different degrees of Rat B@st@rdry in DMing. And if your players are being hounded so much, it doesn't matter if you don't actually kill their PCs very often, as long as they're still spending their game-time being harangued, mauled, and stressed all the time, it's still not going to be fun for most players.

Somehow I manage to keep my players entertained and feeling the tension when it matters, without annoying them constantly. -_-
PCs still die, just not very often (the PCs have had enough close calls, and the occasional gruesome death, that they know well their mortality; those are just few and far between, but happen enough that the party is aware they can get TPK'd if they get too sloppy, so tough fights really do get tense cuz they know I aim to challenge them).

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

So what you're advocating is basically a combination of one-upsmanship with your players, ego stroking for yourself, and being a jerk when you're behind the screen.

Gotcha.

Sorry, but I don't play with people who game to boost their egos. I play to have fun. Challenge is fun. Danger is fun. When the GM stacks the odds against you, arbitrarily screws the characters and all for nothing more than their own pitiful self-aggrandizement? That's not a game. It's just bad comedy.

I said no such thing.
Go back and read my first post.

What you just read, above, is what other DMs did to me and my fellow players.
I do not do such things to my players. I used those cases above as examples of what *not* to do.

EDIT:

The Test of the Towers of High Sorcery in Dragonlance is an exception: it's supposed to be truly horrendous. What I went through is supposed to be Par For the Course.
If your character is a wizard in the Dragonlance setting, expect serious trouble when you reach 3rd level. The books explicitly state to all DMs that the Test should be quite awful.
Dragonhelm can correct me if I'm wrong here.

I have refused to run the Test for my players. Wizards have it hard enough as it is.

 

[Arkhandus]

- DM: 'You kill the 2 orcs. The noise of the battle has aroused ALL the monsters in the entire dungeon, and they are all approaching. Way off, you hear a series of thunderous growls as something really big starts moving. What do you do?' (1st level party of two, B1, TPK.)
- DM: 'The 4 orcs come around the corner. No, there is not time for the mage and thief to switch places with the fighters. The fighters are trapped against the door, while the orcs attack the thief and mage. Since they surprised you, they obviously get free attacks. (4 1st level characters, TPK.)
- DM: 'The six giant spiders attack!' (4 1st level characters, we survived thanks to that old first edition tactic called Burning Oil.)
- DM: 'The ceiling rigged by the party barbarian to kill the party collapses, and this kills most of the party.' (most of party killed, barbarian got away with all the treasure and our paladin as prisoner, in final battle all of party killed by barbarian except paladin prisoner.)

Just to be more specific, these are the examples of yours that are remarkably similar to my own experiences in previous groups under different DMs.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Just to be more specific, these are the examples of yours that are remarkably similar to my own experiences in previous groups under different DMs.

I think most of ENWorld could claim our experiences.
You know the Knights of the Dinner Table? How we all sat at every one of those tables depicted in the strip?
I would guess most of us have had to sit in on experiences similar to mine and yours.

We got clobbered. Beat up. Knocked senseless. Blundered over the head with Ultimo Monsters and buried alive and suffocated in mountains of gold. And decorated like Christmas Trees with magical items, only to be snuffed out soul and body by Inescapable Death Traps.

 

[Ipissimus]

CR 20 dragon vs. 5th level party. Unless you're an incompetant DM, that's sure TPK no matter what the party does. They can't even run between flight, teleports, dragonfear, breath weapons and spells. Of course, if the situation does come up, it certainly calls your competency into question in the first place.

Tough but fair should be the DM's motto. Ok, if that CR 20 dragon is coming it better darn well NOT be a combat encounter. The ability to kill an entire party is not the measture of a DM's worth, since every DM has the power to squash the PCs flat. All you have to do is sit at the head of the table and say "you're all dead, thanks for coming" and that's it. If you're feeling generous, you can have the local God of Death suddenly appear and kill the entire party with the Mass Life and Death Salient Divine Ability.

Adversarial DMs are about as fun to play with as a dentist's appointment, they're even less fun than DMs who let the players get away with blue murder. Edena brings up some excellent examples, all of these are sure-fire methods of pissing off your players.

I'm not saying you should never kill a PC, far from it. I average about 1 a session. But there has to be a chance, even if it is a slim one, of the PCs pulling victory out of nothing. This is where the skill is in being a DM, walking that fine line between being harsh but giving the players a shot. A dose of fairness and realism, in fact.

It's not realistic that every monster in a dungeon will come running the moment the PCs engage in combat. Even if a high level mage throws a spell, there's a save mechanic that gives them a chance of avoiding it. TPKs are, simply, boring. The players all have to roll up new characters, which is alot more boring than playing the game. Facing the daunting task of starting all over from scratch, they might even just pack it in altogether. And I don't blame them, it's not like real life where you have to suck it in and deal, it's just a game. It's a want rather than a need.

Never forget that, at it's base, the sheer unadulterated fun of blasting and chopping a whole bunch of nasty things that want to kill you is a major part of the DnD game. Players love encounters where they face a horde of kobalds and slaughter all 250 of them. It's fun in a similar vein to the first person shooter. And they have so much fun they fail to realize that you're just fattening them for the apocalypse to come.

And when the apocalypse does come, they'll stand and face it, live or die, because they know they'll have a chance and they'll feel like real heroes. That's far, far, more fun than being slaughtered in an inconsiquental random encounter stilted so far against them that they haven't a hope in hell. The players will dispair and they will get angry because in the end, the DM has cheated them of their fun.

The adversarial DM, in his ego, is his own worst enemy as players get more hacked off, the group will tear itself apart. At best, the DM will be alienated with no fault but his own. DnD, as a group activity (or any rpg), has to cater to the needs of everyone at the table and the DM, as the arbitrator, has the unenviable job of fulfilling those needs.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

An Adversarial DM is not a Tough DM.

A Tough DM sits down with his players before the campaign, discusses with them what kind of game they'd like, and works it out with them so they know they'll have the kind of game they're looking for. If the players want a gentler game, the Tough DM either steps aside to let another DM in his place, or he runs that requested gentler game.
The Tough DM knows it's the fun that counts. That's why the Tough DM is tough, because his players are enjoying the challenge.

The Adversarial DM is a strange critter whose nature is not clear to me.
He seems to think hurting his friends is somehow a Good Thing. He somehow thinks of his friends as his enemies, or perhaps thinks they think of him as their enemy and to be treated accordingly. Or perhaps he just thinks that the DM is god, and all players should know their lowly place. Or something equally ridiculous as the above.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

When a character in my Midwood campaign dies, I go to their house and kill their dog, because I want them to fear the consequences of screwing up.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Then there is the Intimidated DM.

The players have dictated very throughly to the Intimidated DM exactly how he is going to give them a free lunch. Because if they don't have a free lunch, they will make lunch of said DM.
The DM accommodates the players very nicely, not wishing to be roasted over a slow fire and served up well done, and gives them their free lunch.

But in D&D, free lunches are boring. Or rapidly become so.

So the players become frustrated because they are not having fun.
Since the frustrated, bored, idle players cannot vent their anger on the DM, who knew to keep his head down, they vent it on each other.

Apparently, arguing over the rules is a fine way of venting anger. It's so fine a way that it eventually pulls everyone else into the fray, and then energy aplenty and to spare is thrown into the battle royale. (Except those players who refuse to get involved, obviously.)
This is a lot of fun for everyone, of course.
It is so fun that it breaks up the game, ruins the evening, wastes everyone's time, and causes a headache no amount of painkillers will even slow down.

Sometimes, the poor DM gets caught despite all his efforts, and then he is flayed alive by the frustrated players. Needless to say, this improves his DMing skills and his desire to be fair and reasonable to the party. It is such an inspiration that the DM might decide to do something that ... will start another argument and/or fight even bigger than the last one.

I say, busy minds are happy minds.
And how better to keep the players busy mentally than to challenge them, and occupy them with roleplaying, and with puzzles, and with the thrill of the chase?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

When a character in my Midwood campaign dies, I go to their house and kill their dog, because I want them to fear the consequences of screwing up.

LOL.

I did know a DM who actually *burned* the character sheets of those PCs he killed, while the players were required to watch ...

 

[Treebore]

Edena, don't bother arguing.

According to some people on this board if you so much as intentionally plan an encounter that has a definite chance of killing a PC or two your an adversarial DM.

Just realize there are gamers that have been that traumatized and just go on.

Heck, I shouldn't even have made my last post.