DMs are too easy on their players

[Sound of Azure]

The main DM I had when D&D 3e first came out was much like what the OP has suggested is best. We lost a lot of PCs, and we realised that we weren't having a lot of fun getting mowed down all the time. So we upped the game.

There's a short story by Alastair Reynolds named Diamond Dogs, where a bunch of people have to solve mathematical problems in order to advance through an alien tower. If they fail, there is lethal result. The people resort to extreme measures to increase their brain power, they reduce the need for sleep, they even eventually replace their entire bodies so that they can continue to advance through the ever smaller rooms of the tower.

Our group's PCs became like that. Our characters became ciphers, extremely specialised tools to "win" the dungeon. They were just there to fulfil our role in the dungeon, and that's all. While this process certainly helped me understand the rules of the game a heck of a lot better, it wasn't very healthy. It's also the reason both my best friend and I started our own games. We simply needed a break from the tension.

Such a play style is great for specific play environments, but not all of them. Being "on the game" 100% of the time is grating, and tiresome IMO. Like a film, book, or computer game, RPGs should have what's called pacing. For me, ideally there should be some moments of intensity (like the OP), but also other slower moments too where the PCs aren't under assault.

 

[Cabled]

Cause they wouldn't get any players.

They would get at least two

 

[Squire James]

I pride myself of being a fair referee regarding what goes on between the players and the combats I set up. Dumb monsters will pretty much sit there and take it, because they don't know much better. Clever monsters will try to choose their battlefields. Violent monsters will pursue fleeing PC's until it or the party dies. Frightened monsters do what they think they need to do to survive (with a heavy bias toward "run away"). If the PC's have a good plan for a certain course of action (like escaping bad combats), it will work 95% of the time. They'll remember that 5%...

I admit I don't break EL guidelines very often. I do enough damage with "balanced" encounters, to tell you the truth. We have fun, they pile up the monster bodies in classic Diablo fashion, I occasionally get to kill a PC, and we go on with life.

 

[Jhaelen]

What almost everyone seems to forget or choose to ignore is that encounters should be balanced on average. There should be encounters that aren't really a threat and there should be encounters that are probably impossible to overcome.

There's a table showing a balanced distribution of encounter levels in the DMG:
Never forget this 5% chance for an encounter with an EL 5+ higher than the party's average level. I believe, these are really important to truly enjoy the game. If there's no challenge, it's no fun.

I've seen players go mad because of a deadly encounter but I keep telling them: Use your judgment! If you feel the encounter might be too tough, act accordingly. Run for it, if you have to.
I'm always trying to make sure there are enough clues available (at least for those actually looking for them) to recognize an overwhelming threat before a TPK occurs. That's only fair, considering the amount of effort put into creating a well-rounded character.

Some of the most memorable encounters in my gaming career have been those where some character made a final-stand to buy his companions time to get away. I definitely wouldn't like to miss those moments and neither would my players!

 

[Festivus]

And no, my players shouldn't think I'm out to kill them or make their lives hell. They should think I'm out to provide an exciting adventure and/or story, with interesting challenges. If that means making their lives hell, great, but that's a tool, not a goal.

I have, twice in the past year, had a mook stand menacingly over a character foolish enough to get themselves into a position where they would get in serious trouble.

As an example, a gnome runs down a hallway past an open door. One mook follows him with the other blocking the corridor (and thus cutting the gnome off). I had the one who was following shoot him with his crossbow (dropping him into negatives) and the following round he moved to stand menacingly over him. The next round would have been a coup-de-grace if not for a well placed sleep spell.

Does that make me adversarial? Not in my mind, they were only defending their lair from these interlopers. They were obviously overpowered by this group but took advantage of both their home turf (knowing the narrow corridors would be a tactical advantage) and were desperate to make any advantage they could.

As far as CRs... I would certainly not throw an obviously overpowered creature against the party unless there was a story reason for it... and even then I would use it as a bit of foreshadowing for what might happen later in the campaign (e.g. the dragon performs a single flyby attack and unleashes a breath weapon... but keeps flying).

 

[kaomera]

Now why can't more DMs be like that?

Ah, but we can. We have exactly the same options that you do, even if we choose not to exercise them the same way.

But I think I see where you're coming from. I mean, I've never really wished that other DMs would run harder games, but I have wished that some things in 3.x where not presented the way they where, that certain assumptions where not made (or at least that players would not read he DMG...). But WotC is, rather short-sidedly IMHO, not writing products just for me. Oh, when I'm in charge things will be different*, Professional AD&D will be the new national pastime, and we won't need to worry about any of this silly new-fangled nonsense, and everyone will like it (or else). But until then I'm going to have to accept that other gamers may just have different tastes. And by "may just" I, of course, mean "absolutely will, 101% of the time".




*I make absolutely no claims whatsoever regarding things being in any way shape or form "better".

 

[mhensley]

I would love to play in your game. When I grow up someday, I hope I can DM like you.

I hear, constantly, of balance.
Encounters should be balanced. A weary worn down party should be allowed to rest and recover. An adventure should not be overwhelming or underwhelming. Character class abilities should be on a par with each other. Character items should be on a par with each other.

I say: nonsense.

If I were your DM:

- You can count on me to throw encounters at you, and you can count on them to almost never be your CR. Some will be pushovers, some stupendously difficult. How will you know beforehand? You won't, typically.
- So you are beaten down? Out of spells? Low on hit points? Need to rest? I do hope you found a good hiding place or a spell that allows you to hide. Because the entire dungeon is after you, and *they* are not going to wait for you to rest and regain your strength.
- I don't owe it to you to be reasonable. I'm here to KILL your characters ((actually, I'm not, but I must make you *think* I am.)) Get it? KILL them. You better run, better hide! You better figure out how to fight well. You better know your spells. My monsters do!
- You are jealous of that other guy's items or powers? That's unfortunate, because without those items he can't protect your character. I guess I should just take them away, and let you both die, no? And you both WILL die, but at least that's fair. Oh wait ... YOU want the special goodies too? Ok then ... let's PLAY and see if you can get some nice items of your own, then!
- You think that character is of an overpowered class? A broken class? Wait until you see my MONSTERS. Then you will learn what BROKEN means. If you survive, the next monster encounter will be worse!
- I have no intention of ever stopping, ever relenting, ever letting up, until your PCs are dead. I can't be bargained with, I can't be reasoned with, I don't know fear, or pity, and I absolutely will not stop, EVER, until your PCs are dead ((actually, I don't mean that, but I'm going to make it sure look like I do.)) I am the bad guy. I am out to KILL your characters.
- You want to stop and argue amongst yourselves In Character? That's foolish. You can hear each other arguing ... and so can the whole Dungeon. And they wish to join your discussion.
- You wish to waste my time by arguing Out of Character? Didn't we agree we WOULDN'T do that before the game?
- Your evil characters are going to fight? Didn't we agree to suspend disbelief and that the party would cooperate, even though they were evil? They could be evil to everyone but the other PCs?
- No, you CAN'T take a break and rest your PCs, unless you want a TPK. About a billion monsters are after you right now!!!
- I don't want to hear your rules argument. During the next break, we'll discuss it. Right now, we play.
- You made a mistake? You beat my monster with a +39 sword and now you realize that it is actually only +2? Bully for you. I'm glad you found your mistake. No problems. Let's play.

Now, if DMs worked like that, we'd have no more of this balance stuff, envy stuff, jealousy stuff, alignment arguments, or anything such.
Because people DESPERATELY FIGHTING FOR THEIR LIVES do not have time for such discussions.
And after the game - and their miraculous survival - the players realize that everything (all those items, powers, PrCs, feats, spells, etc.) they brought to the table was needed for victory.

Me: The dragon is coming.
Party: That's a CR 20 encounter! We're CR 5.
Me: Tough.
Party: What do we do?!
Me: (raises eyebrows) Run? Hide? Fight? I do hope you make up your minds quickly ...
Party: It's not balanced!
Me: Would you have preferred the 5 beholders I was considering? You ought to thank your lucky stars it's only a young dragon. Now, you have about 10 seconds to do something, before I rule you lose initiative to said dragon ... 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5 ...
Party: Uh ... ok ... we ...
Me: 4, 3, 2 ...
Party: We act out Operation 21! (pre-planned set of actions for just such an emergency.)
Me: Ok. On with the game ...

-

When you are the DM, I am stuck in the boat I put you in. When she is DMing, both you and I are stuck in that boat. But right now I'm DM, we agreed it would be tough before we started, and now you must live (or die) with the situation.

Now why can't more DMs be like that?

 

[Treebore]

I hear, constantly, of balance.
Encounters should be balanced. A weary worn down party should be allowed to rest and recover. An adventure should not be overwhelming or underwhelming. Character class abilities should be on a par with each other. Character items should be on a par with each other.

I say: nonsense.

If I were your DM:

- You can count on me to throw encounters at you, and you can count on them to almost never be your CR. Some will be pushovers, some stupendously difficult. How will you know beforehand? You won't, typically.
- So you are beaten down? Out of spells? Low on hit points? Need to rest? I do hope you found a good hiding place or a spell that allows you to hide. Because the entire dungeon is after you, and *they* are not going to wait for you to rest and regain your strength.
- I don't owe it to you to be reasonable. I'm here to KILL your characters ((actually, I'm not, but I must make you *think* I am.)) Get it? KILL them. You better run, better hide! You better figure out how to fight well. You better know your spells. My monsters do!
- You are jealous of that other guy's items or powers? That's unfortunate, because without those items he can't protect your character. I guess I should just take them away, and let you both die, no? And you both WILL die, but at least that's fair. Oh wait ... YOU want the special goodies too? Ok then ... let's PLAY and see if you can get some nice items of your own, then!
- You think that character is of an overpowered class? A broken class? Wait until you see my MONSTERS. Then you will learn what BROKEN means. If you survive, the next monster encounter will be worse!
- I have no intention of ever stopping, ever relenting, ever letting up, until your PCs are dead. I can't be bargained with, I can't be reasoned with, I don't know fear, or pity, and I absolutely will not stop, EVER, until your PCs are dead ((actually, I don't mean that, but I'm going to make it sure look like I do.)) I am the bad guy. I am out to KILL your characters.
- You want to stop and argue amongst yourselves In Character? That's foolish. You can hear each other arguing ... and so can the whole Dungeon. And they wish to join your discussion.
- You wish to waste my time by arguing Out of Character? Didn't we agree we WOULDN'T do that before the game?
- Your evil characters are going to fight? Didn't we agree to suspend disbelief and that the party would cooperate, even though they were evil? They could be evil to everyone but the other PCs?
- No, you CAN'T take a break and rest your PCs, unless you want a TPK. About a billion monsters are after you right now!!!
- I don't want to hear your rules argument. During the next break, we'll discuss it. Right now, we play.
- You made a mistake? You beat my monster with a +39 sword and now you realize that it is actually only +2? Bully for you. I'm glad you found your mistake. No problems. Let's play.

Now, if DMs worked like that, we'd have no more of this balance stuff, envy stuff, jealousy stuff, alignment arguments, or anything such.
Because people DESPERATELY FIGHTING FOR THEIR LIVES do not have time for such discussions.
And after the game - and their miraculous survival - the players realize that everything (all those items, powers, PrCs, feats, spells, etc.) they brought to the table was needed for victory.

Me: The dragon is coming.
Party: That's a CR 20 encounter! We're CR 5.
Me: Tough.
Party: What do we do?!
Me: (raises eyebrows) Run? Hide? Fight? I do hope you make up your minds quickly ...
Party: It's not balanced!
Me: Would you have preferred the 5 beholders I was considering? You ought to thank your lucky stars it's only a young dragon. Now, you have about 10 seconds to do something, before I rule you lose initiative to said dragon ... 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5 ...
Party: Uh ... ok ... we ...
Me: 4, 3, 2 ...
Party: We act out Operation 21! (pre-planned set of actions for just such an emergency.)
Me: Ok. On with the game ...

-

When you are the DM, I am stuck in the boat I put you in. When she is DMing, both you and I are stuck in that boat. But right now I'm DM, we agreed it would be tough before we started, and now you must live (or die) with the situation.

Now why can't more DMs be like that?

I am like that. ITs not easy getting there, or staying there, because when you ride them on the edge like that its easy for the DM to fall off just as well as for the players.

Plus its not necessarily a good thing to always run your games like that. You also have to read the mood of your group. It may be netter to run somethng a bit easier and with a bit of humor and fun, or other combinations.

Some people deal with high stress all week long at their jobs. So when they come to play they are there to relax, not get worked up all over again and not get to relax.

Its just a "fine tooled machine" on which you need to check your readings on, as well as fine tune it one more time before starting it up, to make sure you don't miss something and make it blow up.

So when I think my players are in the right mood, thats the way I will run it for them.

Otherwise I back off and just try to give them some relaxing fun.

But it isn't easy to learn/figure out how to DM like that, and a fair number of players just can't deal with that kind of intensity. Its great when you can do it, but it sucks when you don't know how to do it right, or do it with players who aren't in the right frame of mind to enjoy it.

 

[Treebore]

Oh please, lets not start that "adversarial" argument again.

I have seen DM's who are truly adversarial. They truly love putting PC's through death machince dungeons and see how far they get. That isn't what is being talked about here.

Whats being talked about here is having your players totally convinced that they are going to die if they go the wrong way, make a bad roll, face one more bad guy, etc... Until its all over, you sit back, and realize that the DM got you so into it you forgot you were just playing a game. The DM was just there doing their job making you feel like you were fighting for your life, and feeling the thrill and excitement of living anyways, or dying.

Nothing truly adversarial about it.

What its about is running a game so intense that players are shaking, crying, and shouting for joy that they made it. Or bummed that they didn't, but man it was one heck of a ride until it ended!

Thats what kind of adversarial DMing is being talked about here.


Check out Goodman Games new module line. Its all about this kind of gaming.

 

[3catcircus]

They would get at least two

Three.

I love both DMing and playing in this type of game. I see too many people (including in the campaign I am currently running) trying to do super hero actions.

You know - the guy who wants to take that combination of classes and feats to become an immortal (a psionic feat allows you to step out of the time stream, effectively making you immortal) and who is metamorphosed into a gargoyle all the time.

The guy who wants his kobold to be dragon-descended so he can eventually run around as a gold dragon all the time.

The spellcaster who has the bonded summoner class to get an elemental.

Insisting on buying/creating magic/psionic items to allow them to carry the same weight as a fully-loaded freight train, fly, and buff all of their stats and abilities. Using Phantom Steed to go all over the place.

If you want a super heroes game - play one. If you want to play D&D and not have it get out of hand, you really need to take the "white list" approach - i.e. - allow *nothing* except core and only allow specific new material on an individual basis. Enforce the encumbrance rules (and modify them to make more sense - just because something can be carried weight-wise doesn't mean it isn't too bulky to carry without a significant effort - enough with trying to fill every cubic inch of a backpack). Modify the money rules to make silver the standard (something like 1 sp = 1 silver penny, 1 gp = xx silver pennies, etc.). Houserule that some spells aren't available. Don't fall into the trap of allowing Magic Marts in every piss-ant town. Play the NPCs as ruthlessly as the players do their PCs.