DMs are too easy on their players

[Doug McCrae]

I personally see 3E as akin to playing a video game in god mode in many cases. It takes a DM really trying to challenge PCs in 3E to seriously harm and kill them.

We had two deaths last session, and three the session before. The highest single challenge was party level+3, and consecutive challenges were no more than party level+1. And that's an Eberron game so the PCs get action points.

Deaths were generally a lot rarer than that in my 1e and 2e games, though it could vary widely.

 

[Arkhandus]

So, really, you're just antagonistic and have to make things difficult, in order to have any self-respect for yourself as an RBDM, then?

Your attitude seems more geared towards wargaming than roleplaying. Us versus Them is only one, very limited, form of gaming. And for many people it isn't fun. I'm sorry, we play games to escape the irritation and harrassment of daily life in the real world. Hardships in-game should not be the only thing in-game.

If I just wanted to pit my skills against another in simulated combat and suchlike, I'd play Warhammer instead of D&D. And I wouldn't mind doing that once in a while. But it's not the same thing and definitely not worthwhile for me to bother with that kind of antagonistic DM in D&D, especially with all the time and trouble of character creation and roleplaying.

Characters die and campaigns end, but I don't run many dungeon crawls, which is the only kind of D&D game you're describing, and for me the primary concern is that everyone has fun during the game, because it is a game. When the entire goal of the campaign is to make the players miserable or annoyed, I don't think many people are going to have fun except the DM.

 

[Doug McCrae]

PC are MUCH tougher than in previous versions of D&D, and their save bonuses are usually high enough that only a very unlucky roll will kill or incapacitate them.

Medusa CR7, Petrifying Gaze Fort DC15. Ambush attacker. 7th level wizard will have a 50/50 shot at passing, same with the rogue. That's about a 75% chance of taking out a party member.

Bebilith CR10. Poison 1d6 con/2d6 con. Fort DC24. That's death right there. It's an ambusher too, with Hide/Move Silently +16, so how do you avoid it?

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

My group gets bored by fights where the outcome isn't in doubt. Once you know who's going to win, why bother rolling it out? At that point, it's just predictable and dull.

So unless the outcome isn't in doubt there's a tendency to handwave the fighting -- whether or not I'm DMing.

"Okay, all that's left are the mooks. You mop them up, taking 3d6 damage in the process. What now?"

 

[Edgewood]

The only thing I can add is to make sure you warn your players before you start that you don't follow CR/EL guidelines.

There's nothing wrong with running from a fight you can't deal with.

BUT when they choose to run, if you shoot them in their backs as they run away, snatch their character sheets and rip them up while laughing in their faces, then you're a bad sport!

Well, I just ran a session this past weekend where the big bad guy ran from the PCs and they shot him in the back as he ran. If the PCs can do it, you can bet I'll be doing it to them too. All's fair in love and war

As for your post Edena, I would play in your game no problem. As a player, I would probably take the same attitude towards the monsters!!

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Certainly the game should be challenging to the players, but at the same time there needs to be some way for the PCs to play and survive. I don't have a problem with the idea that there can be encounters that are beyond the PCs abilities, but as long as they have some way of realizing that before they are getting killed.

I've played with DMs who are so open to letting the PCs do what they want that they "stumble" into adventures that he DM planned for 4 levels from their current level. The PCs get the hooks, they follow up on them, there is no indication that this is WAAY too much for them until they are in the thick of it and have no way of retreating with everyone alive. I usually didn't play with those DMs for long.

My ideal version of a DM isn't one who feels that have to make things as tough as possible, but someone who makes things a mix of difficult and not so difficult challenges, and most importantly, involves our PCs in the campaign in clever, creative ways that can be rat-bastardly without having to kill us off to prove what a great RBDM he or she is.

 

[conanb]

I think that it's important to have the conversation with your players if your the DM about what type of game they want to play and want type of game you want to run.

Now I for one like a game that is challenging to the players. I do not want to TPK them, so I always try to put together an encounter I think they can handle but that should be challenging. Now some players I've told this too say "Sure I want a challenging game" but in reality they meant they wanted a cake walk. But that's the player not being honest with me during our initial conversation about what type of game to run.

Now I must also say that I tend to try and have a few non-combat solutions to a situation. It doesn't always work, but having that lever attached to the trapdoor just as the bad guys walk on it or cutting the rope that drops the chandelier on the bad guys. I think these 'movie moments' add to the fun of the game and are a bit more memorable than the next 20 rounds of attack, dodge, attack, dodge, tumble etc.

Overall I think you should sit down and talk to your players. If you are a DM that wants to run challenging situations and the players are those that want a wish fulfillment game, that game isn't going to work. The key here is to talk to your players. Make sure your both on board for what you plan on running.

 

[Gothmog]

Interesting, my experience has been completely diffferent.
With the prevalent save or die effects, high crits and high damage output of monsters, I've seen even "pushover encounters" be devastating.

For example - party of 5 17th level characters runs into 3 fire giants. Party completely underestimates what the fire giants can do and the Druid and the ranger end up dead. The ranger had made arangements and was braught back to life (but weakened) and the Druid staid dead (player rolled a new 15th level character).

As I stated above, I've found 3e (and 3.5) characters more fragile, not less.

I'll grant you I haven't played much 3E at high level (past 12th), but in the 3E games I have played before 12th level, the monsters BAB isn't often high enough to confirm many crits on PC's due to their ACs, so critical hits haven't been as common. Some monsters do happen to kill PCs due to sheer damage output- like a 3rd level PC and an ogre, but thats been the exception in our experience- not the rule. Often our PCs would aid another and do defensive fighting against large/tough enemies to maximize their potential. In 3E there were a few save or die effects (disintigration, slay living, and some monster abilities), but in 3.5 other that the rare monster ability (like a bodak) almost all of the save or die effects are gone- that was one of the goals of the revision if I remember correctly.

 

[Mycanid]

Certainly the game should be challenging to the players, but at the same time there needs to be some way for the PCs to play and survive. I don't have a problem with the idea that there can be encounters that are beyond the PCs abilities, but as long as they have some way of realizing that before they are getting killed.

I've played with DMs who are so open to letting the PCs do what they want that they "stumble" into adventures that he DM planned for 4 levels from their current level. The PCs get the hooks, they follow up on them, there is no indication that this is WAAY too much for them until they are in the thick of it and have no way of retreating with everyone alive. I usually didn't play with those DMs for long.

My ideal version of a DM isn't one who feels that have to make things as tough as possible, but someone who makes things a mix of difficult and not so difficult challenges, and most importantly, involves our PCs in the campaign in clever, creative ways that can be rat-bastardly without having to kill us off to prove what a great RBDM he or she is.

Good summary Thornir - must be that upstate NY fount of wisdom flowing in your veins.

 

[WarlockLord]

I do this too. I don't try to fill every moment with combat scenes, but if you go into battle, it's going to be a FIGHT! Not some stroll through the nursing home.