DM's forfeit power

[FireLance]

Any time a player can use the rules to veto the creative input of the DM, the game potentially suffers.

Any time a game has reached the point where a player is using the rules to veto the creative input of the DM, it ought to be put out of its misery. Unless, of course, the DM and the players all get a kick out of blocking each others' fun.

 

[Henry]

Any time that happens, it's usually a sign that both the DM and the players have forgotten the rules in the parts of the core books that stress the DM as the ultimate authority in the campaign.

Problem is, that statement is no longer a given in many groups, as I've found in conversations with folks here and elsewhere.

 

[ashockney]

Any time a player can use the rules to veto the creative input of the DM, the game potentially suffers.

Wow! Well said Mark. I think you've encapsulated our whole discussion from last night in one powerful sentence.

In our experience at least, the pen & paper stories we created in 1st edition had significantly more creative input from the DM.

Thanks to everyone for posting their opinions. It's interesting to see the different perspectives.

 

[an_idol_mind]

Problem is, that statement is no longer a given in many groups, as I've found in conversations with folks here and elsewhere.

It does seem that some gamers have lost the common sense that makes these games so fun. Last I checked, the newest edition of the core books still mentions that the DM has authority over the rules. Maybe some of the DMs out there should point out this rule to their more uppity players.

 

[Numion]

fighting a beholder at any level vs. fighting a beolder between 11-14

It's quite common to encounter monsters of higher CR than party level to party +3. If you bother to read the DMG it actually ancourages the DM to use encouters of over party level +5.

 

[Driddle]

I blame the computer game revolution, which allowed us to play and replay and replay the same scenarios by taking different paths to see their various outcomes without any real emotional investment in the character's development. Computer games became an exercise in exploring such career paths, AND in loading up with the best gear known to be available. It warped our appreciation for "organic" development, and that carried over to our table gaming experience as well. We now lay out character development blueprints with an end goal in mind -- the "perfect" character -- instead of adapting to life (the RPG version) as it develops.

 

[Umbran]

Any time a player can use the rules to veto the creative input of the DM, the game potentially suffers.

Well, by that logic, any time the players know any of the rules (other than Rule 0), the game potentially suffers. So, this isn't particularly edition-dependent.

Again, it boils down to the relationship between teh DM and the players, and not the rules.

 

[FireLance]

I blame the computer game revolution, which allowed us to play and replay and replay the same scenarios by taking different paths to see their various outcomes without any real emotional investment in the character's development. Computer games became an exercise in exploring such career paths, AND in loading up with the best gear known to be available. It warped our appreciation for "organic" development, and that carried over to our table gaming experience as well. We now lay out character development blueprints with an end goal in mind -- the "perfect" character -- instead of adapting to life (the RPG version) as it develops.

You know, I get enough of organic development and adapting and sub-optimization just by living life. Why on earth would I want to repeat the same experience in my games? I mean, if I can't even approach perfection in my fantasies, what's the point?

 

[Mark CMG]

Again, it boils down to the relationship between teh DM and the players, and not the rules.

Doesn't take you long to catch up, eh?

 

[Henry]

You know, I get enough of organic development and adapting and sub-optimization just by living life. Why on earth would I want to repeat the same experience in my games? I mean, if I can't even approach perfection in my fantasies, what's the point?

And that's fine; some people want Ed Greenwood's Spellfire, others want Leiber's Swords against Death. I don't mind either one, when the mood strikes, but it's nice to be able to do either.