(+)Do Any TTRPGs Do Dueling Really Well?

[TheSword]

+thread because I don't have the energy to debate whether the following are good design goals or whatever. The thread assumes they are.

So, what I'm referring to is mechanically representing the back and forth chess game of dueling, whether it's European fencing, Tai Chi, Aikido, Eskrima, kickboxing, whatever. They all have similar elements, which are:

Strong vs soft attacks, quick attacks vs ones that require making a good opening, multiple avenues of skillful defense from dodging to blocking to deflection (parrying), counter-moves, feints, anticipation of opponent moves, importance of footwork and positioning and stance, muscle memory training to free your brain to play chess while your body fights, a certain degree of momentum and setting up the next move to set up the move after that, and probably some elements I'm blanking on.

Now, mechanically representing those things is not something DnD has ever been remotely good at without loading down characters with 100 distinct powers that either are at-will but aren't very strong (unless they're broken), or limited by an arbitrary limiter such as 1/encounter or 1/day per power, or X/day and you can spam the same one all you want with those uses.

Some mechanics I'm looking for

• Active defense as the default.You cannot defend yourself passively, and normal defense is not hand waved as a passive mechanic
  • Ability to party and even counter-parry, and riposte
• Different styles matter.
  • You don’t use a later French sword for a Spanish Destreza style, you use a longer blade
  • Different styles, stances, signature moves, make a difference, and there are trade offs for mastery vs versatility as one style may be better in rough terrain or against a larger opponent
• Different attacks are different. You don’t defend the same against a strong high attack vs a low quick attack, and you use the same in different situations.
• Momentum matters. When you are on the back foot you need to do soemthing to change that and then try to reverse it.
  • An action to regain the initiative/position/whatever should be distinct, and also not a death spiral enabler
• It’s still a game. The players shouldn’t need to know who Agrippa is to become a master diestro and utilize his ideas. The mechanics shouldn’t rely on fighting knowledge, but should teach what the players need to know, and use game mechanics to model physical actions, panache, trickery, intimidation, etc.

So…am I gonna have to build this from scratch or does anyone know a game that hits at least a solid plurality of these points and plays well?

So WFRP 4e gets closer to this than 5e does…

1. Attackers make an attack roll and it is opposed by a defender’s roll. The difference determines the effectiveness of the attack. Both are checks against skill with the particular weapon they are using.
2. The defender can choose multiple skills to defend with apart from their weapon. Including dodge, or even perform/charm etc in appropriate circumstances.
3. It is possible for the defender to retaliate with a damaging attack (critical) on a lucky roll just like a riposte.
4. Advantage is a mechanic that builds up with success and can be used to improve attacks (or spent jn the group advantage rules to get extra attacks or bonuses to combat/special tricks). It represents momentum in combat and talents like Feint, Reversal and Beat Blade can affect the momentum.
5. Weapons have different lengths so a person wielding a rapier has the edge over someone wielding a dagger. But it’s possible for the dagger wielder to get into the rapier wielder’s reach so they can’t fight as effectively. It’s called in-fighting.
6. Different weapons have many different special effects. For instance an axe can hack, which damages a shield or armour on a hit but is less effective at defending. A rapier is fast which gives a small benefit to attacking and allows the wielder to attack at any stage of the initiative order. A character can developed multiple fighting skills or focus on just one.

Anyway just my thoughts. Its not the only combat system but it’s the one that most seems to encapsulate what you’re talking about. Particularly the momentum!

There is even a duelist career!

 

[jdrakeh]

Swashbuckler! by Jolly Roger Games uses a card-based (and very cool) dueling system.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The best I've seen for those kinds of things were separate games. There was a CCG in the early days (mid 90s) that used a 3x3 grid to choose how you were attacking and defending that I thought was good, but I can't remember the name. I think the guy who did Ace of Aces (WW II aerial combat using books with images) did something similar for sword fighting, but I again can't remember the name.

I don't know of an RPG that does what you want well, so you might need to find a board or card game that does it well and work that into your RPG. Unfortunately I don't know of any current games that do it well.

I wonder if it's En Garde! ?

I apologise if my contribution did not enter into the spirit of the + thread - I meant only to be helpful and felt my suggestions were in line with your design goals. Your friendly reminder is taken as such, but I'll avoid such threads in the future as I don't seem to understand what is expected in them.

it's all good. It's not like you came in and thread crapped, I just wanted to make sure the thread didn't become about whether the premise was good.

So WFRP 4e gets closer to this than 5e does…

1. Attackers make an attack roll and it is opposed by a defender’s roll. The difference determines the effectiveness of the attack. Both are checks against skill with the particular weapon they are using.
2. The defender can choose multiple skills to defend with apart from their weapon. Including dodge, or even perform/charm etc in appropriate circumstances.
3. It is possible for the defender to retaliate with a damaging attack (critical) on a lucky roll just like a riposte.
4. Advantage is a mechanic that builds up with success and can be used to improve attacks (or spent jn the group advantage rules to get extra attacks or bonuses to combat/special tricks). It represents momentum in combat and talents like Feint, Reversal and Beat Blade can affect the momentum.
5. Weapons have different lengths so a person wielding a rapier has the edge over someone wielding a dagger. But it’s possible for the dagger wielder to get into the rapier wielder’s reach so they can’t fight as effectively. It’s called in-fighting.
6. Different weapons have many different special effects. For instance an axe can hack, which damages a shield or armour on a hit but is less effective at defending. A rapier is fast which gives a small benefit to attacking and allows the wielder to attack at any stage of the initiative order. A character can developed multiple fighting skills or focus on just one.

Anyway just my thoughts. Its not the only combat system but it’s the one that most seems to encapsulate what you’re talking about. Particularly the momentum!

There is even a duelist career!

Huh. Nice! I have never looked at WFRP because the general vibe of all things Warhammer has never been my jam, but I will have to look into that.

Swashbuckler! by Jolly Roger Games uses a card-based (and very cool) dueling system.

I'll look at that! Thanks! I've never heard of that one.

 

[GMMichael]

Some mechanics I'm looking for

• Active defense as the default.You cannot defend yourself passively, and normal defense is not hand waved as a passive mechanic
  • Ability to party and even counter-parry, and riposte
• Different styles matter.
  • You don’t use a later French sword for a Spanish Destreza style, you use a longer blade
  • Different styles, stances, signature moves, make a difference, and there are trade offs for mastery vs versatility as one style may be better in rough terrain or against a larger opponent
• Different attacks are different. You don’t defend the same against a strong high attack vs a low quick attack, and you use the same in different situations.
• Momentum matters. When you are on the back foot you need to do soemthing to change that and then try to reverse it.
  • An action to regain the initiative/position/whatever should be distinct, and also not a death spiral enabler
• It’s still a game. The players shouldn’t need to know who Agrippa is to become a master diestro and utilize his ideas. The mechanics shouldn’t rely on fighting knowledge, but should teach what the players need to know, and use game mechanics to model physical actions, panache, trickery, intimidation, etc.

So…am I gonna have to build this from scratch or does anyone know a game that hits at least a solid plurality of these points and plays well?

Do not build it from scratch! I mean, yeah, you do you.

So, I'm thinking of a game that doesn't call these moves "riposte" or "styles" or "high attack," but there are similar dynamics there:

• If you don't defend, you have only your armor to protect you.
• Opponents choose how (if) to immediately react to your attacks. Reactions can include defenses, counter-attacks, or dodges.
• If you time it right (i.e. during your turn) you can roll a skilled attack into a series of blows. Or narrate all the blows as a single, unblockable attack.
• 3 actions per round translate into stamina. You can use up all your stamina before your opponent, or save some for later in the round.
• Footwork is included in attacks and defenses, but taking a defensive stance or position can stall, but not prevent, the end of combat.
• Having the initiative matters, and you can gain it by making an initiative sacrifice in the current round, if you didn't already have it.
• You can roll the dice to go for the high result (the risky attack) or make the safer move and expect reasonable results.

Sound like a decent match?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Do not build it from scratch! I mean, yeah, you do you.

So, I'm thinking of a game that doesn't call these moves "riposte" or "styles" or "high attack," but there are similar dynamics there:

• If you don't defend, you have only your armor to protect you.
• Opponents choose how (if) to immediately react to your attacks. Reactions can include defenses, counter-attacks, or dodges.
• If you time it right (i.e. during your turn) you can roll a skilled attack into a series of blows. Or narrate all the blows as a single, unblockable attack.
• 3 actions per round translate into stamina. You can use up all your stamina before your opponent, or save some for later in the round.
• Footwork is included in attacks and defenses, but taking a defensive stance or position can stall, but not prevent, the end of combat.
• Having the initiative matters, and you can gain it by making an initiative sacrifice in the current round, if you didn't already have it.
• You can roll the dice to go for the high result (the risky attack) or make the safer move and expect reasonable results.

Sound like a decent match?

Sounds like a thing to check out for sure!

 

[General_Tangent]

Perhaps Honor + Intrigue would do what you want?

I did encounter a game that simulated fencing duels reasonably well but I can't remember the title or publisher, the only thing I can recall about it is the word Deadelus.

 

[aramis erak]

Flashing Blades does a good job. En Garde is good too but isn't quite an RPG.

Which En Garde?
The GDW/Margam Evans one is intended to be an RPG played at table. (Source: Frank Chadwick and Marc Miller.) That it turned into a widely played PBP not-quite is a wholly different issue. THe dueling was intended to be write orders, then resolve, continue if needed. I've played it solo... it's one of the precursors to Traveller.

There is also a Swedish RPG, which I've only seen database entries for on RPGG.

Then there are 5 or 6 pure boardgame... one of which is a cines checkers variant.

 

[Atomoctba]

There is some games based on a same old engine and I will not remember the name of them all, but one is Song of Swords. It is a system with a Combat Pool. Essentially, you have X d10 each turn of combat and split them between offensive and defensive maneuvers. You also must stat, at the start of each turn, if you are being reckless, cautious, or middle ground. Then, roll the assigned dice to empower the meneuvers you have, most of them specific of a certain type of weapon.

My personal oppinion is that is a convuleted system, complicated in many points, and very bad to anything except duels or bouts. (The non-combat skill rolls are particularly awful). But, I must concede that from a simulationist point of view, it is one of the most complex maneuver and countermaneuver system I saw for duels.

 

[soviet]

The Riddle of Steel would seem to be very much what you're looking for

 

[Atomoctba]

The Riddle of Steel would seem to be very much what you're looking for

This... Song of Swords is based in the Riddle of Steel. I was attempting to remember the name of this game.