Doctor Who s8e4: "Listen"; best ep of the year so far!

[Elven]

As to the barn, I never got the impression that it was on Gallifrey. The Doctor, or War Doctor or whatever, made it a point to park the T.A.R.D.I.S. well away so 'she' wouldnt know what he was doing, so it kinda makes sense that he woulda picked a secluded place to frag all of Gallifrey and the Daleks, so someplace on Gallifrey just doesnt seem to fit. But, I could be wrong, I'm hoping they explore this a little more in upcoming episodes, and as to why he has a familiar face, and how he apparently regenerates into Tom Baker again.

It is possible the "barn" may have not been on Gallifrey (but i think it was)
Gallifreyan children are brought up by their extended family prior to the age of eight, so he could have been anywhere before then,

 

[Elven]

One thought. Gallifrey is currently inaccessible, even to a TARDIS. That barn therefore was not on Gallifrey, since Clara flew the TARDIS there.

I assumed the barn was on Gallifrey in the 50th anniversary episode. But clearly it's not. But that raises a other fact: the Doctor did not grow up on Gallifrey.

That's new. And interesting.

Both could be true,
But Gallifrey is only "locked" at the point forward from when it became "locked", not retroactively (which would mean rewriting a lot of past history)
So she could visit the Gallifrey of the past,

 

[Morrus]

Both could be true,
But Gallifrey is only "locked" at the point forward from when it became "locked", not retroactively (which would mean rewriting a lot of past history)
So she could visit the Gallifrey of the past,

That's certainly a new interpretation. We're talking a civilization of time travellers locked in an eternal time war with another time travelling civilization which spanned all of time and space.

If you could just pop back to "before" it was locked, it kinda defeats the point. Plus somebody would have thought of that by now.

 

[Elven]

That's certainly a new interpretation. We're talking a civilization of time travellers locked in an eternal time war with another time travelling civilization which spanned all of time and space.

If you could just pop back to "before" it was locked, it kinda defeats the point. Plus somebody would have thought of that by now.

Yeah, you would think but there is always a McGuffin to stop it, (think about all the time prior to the war that the Doctor has been forced to return or visit Gallifrey, (no time war there...)

 

[Morrus]

Yeah, you would think but there is always a McGuffin to stop it, (think about all the time prior to the war that the Doctor has been forced to return or visit Gallifrey, (no time war there...)

There isn't a tie prior to the war. It's a time war! The only 'prior' is our viewing history, as we the viewers are outside the universe depicted. We remember a time prior to when the BBC scriptwriters produced stories about the time war, but the inhabitants of the universe don't. They've made it pretty clear repeatedly that the time lock was for all of time. Otherwise it's not a time lock, it's just a ... lock.

 

[Elven]

There isn't a tie prior to the war. It's a time war! The only 'prior' is our viewing history, as we the viewers are outside the universe depicted. We remember a time prior to when the BBC scriptwriters produced stories about the time war, but the inhabitants of the universe don't. They've made it pretty clear repeatedly that the time lock was for all of time. Otherwise it's not a time lock, it's just a ... lock.

The TARDIS has certain restrictions to stop it from landing and overlapping its own historical footprint,

But I'm not sure you have it right, remember how all the Doctors came back to save Gallifray?
How the war doctor stole the weapon, and the only way they could save Gallifray was to relocate it (not time lock it away from everyone, bear in mind that for Gallifray to grow in to a time traveling race they would need to get out and about to explore ect, you can't just seal it away in a Brigadoon fashion, no the past need to remain for their future to exist, you can't go creating paradoxes, its like going back and killing your granddad before your mother was born, where would you be then?)

A McGuffin (aka "The Excuse") is the only way around many of the paradoxes in the show,

Or any old Dalek or cyberman could just go back to the beginning of time, kill everyone and take their stuff,

But that doesn't happen, why?
MCGUFFIN
(in this case some sort of pseudo scientific technobabble)

 

[Nellisir]

Definitely the best episode of the season so far, and one of the best in awhile. I much prefer Capaldi to whatisface, fezhead.
Thoughts as I watched the episode:

• Oh look. Another creepy childhood episode. Are you my mummy? Don't blink. Silence.
• Does this tie into the Silence? It'll be pretty bloody stupid if there are two hiding races following us. Do they have conferences?
• It doesn't seem like it ties in. Half of the crap in this show never makes the leap to connect with anything that it ought to.
• Danny seems awful sensitive. I hope he's seeing a shrink.
• Clara and the Doctor are getting on as equals much more than I can remember seeing ever before with a Doctor and a companion. That's awesome.
• It's also awesome that Clara gets to have a life AND go adventuring while she's nabbing supplies from the supply closet.
• It'd be nice if a guy was introduced and DIDN'T become the boyfriend of the companion.
• Clara is much better with people than the doctor is. Guess that's what comes of being the Carer.
• F*ck me, it comes 'round and makes sense! No tie to the Silence necessary! Glory be, hallelujah!
• She should've told him he could be anything he wanted, even a doctor. That would've been a lovely seed.
• I'll bet dollars we see that toy soldier again.

Basically:

• I love that Clara pushes back against the Doctor and takes charge. I LOVE seeing her behave as an adult, not some addle-pated child-woman (coughPondcough)
• I love that the story doesn't invoke another mystery race. Enough already. The Who-verse has tons of breadth, but it often lacks depth as things are introduced, used for a season, and discarded, never to be referenced again.
• I'm fine with the mystery of what's under the blanket. maybe it's just another kid. Don't care, don't want to know. That whole scene was a bit ham-handed and could've been shot to be more ambiguous (they don't get out from under the bed; the Doctor suddenly looks under it and sees them; they _all_ get under the bed; cue dialogue about not looking; weight leaves bed) and would've worked better, but whatever. I'm used to squinting at this show to avoid seeing the skips and scratches.

 

[Nellisir]

I'm just an American that barely pays attention to the show, but my impression has _always_ been that Gallifrey is time-locked from the beginning of time to the end of it. As Morrus says, it's a time-war. The only time the Doctor (in whatever and however many iterations) accesses Gallifrey is with a loophole; usually a one-time (ha ha) affair. They can't just pop back to "before" the time-lock; that's like...finding the point of a circle. It's not there.

 

[Elven]

I'm just an American that barely pays attention to the show, but my impression has _always_ been that Gallifrey is time-locked from the beginning of time to the end of it. As Morrus says, it's a time-war. The only time the Doctor (in whatever and however many iterations) accesses Gallifrey is with a loophole; usually a one-time (ha ha) affair. They can't just pop back to "before" the time-lock; that's like...finding the point of a circle. It's not there.

If it was "time locked" how can the Doctor be?, surely he would have also been time locked, at his birth, at the academy, etc, same for the master?

If its retroactive, how is there a doctor?


(btw: time locked events are a McGuffin, anything can be time locked not due to anything technical, but its story driven, (and then they make up an excuse)
A time locked event/place in the rpg is at the gm whim, (no hard fast rules, if the gm says its so, it is) and remembered that the rpg has to be cleared by the BBC themselves before they can be printed,)

 

[MarkB]

One thing worth mentioning is that Clara has technically been to Gallifrey before, when she entered the Doctor's timeline to undo the Great Intelligence's meddling. One of the first scenes we see is her talking to the first Doctor as he's about to steal a TARDIS.

That has two strong implications - first, that the Time Lock isn't utterly impenetrable, and second, that Clara, on a subconscious level at least, may still retain the connection to the Doctor's timeline that allowed her to travel through it in the first place. She may even have subconsciously remembered his childhood dream.