Does damage from a touch attack ignore Damage Reduction

[wildstarsreach]

Certainly. But so is the 1d6 fire damage from a Flaming longsword; it is the weapon that deals +1d6 damage, therefore it is 'weapon damage', no?

It is also lethal damage. It is also energy damage. It is also fire damage. It is also damage resulting from a touch attack (assuming Wraithstrike).

The +1d6 fire damage is weapon damage, but it is not negated by DR because it is energy damage dealt along with an attack. The 1d8 slashing damage is weapon damage, but it is not negated by DR because it is a touch attack.

-Hyp.

Thanks. This was clear and unequivical.

 

[tylermalan]

That's odd because then the sentence should read...

Damage reduction does not negate melee attacks, ranged attacks, touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains.

Because it doesn't actually stop you hitting them with a melee attack even though it negates the damage, and it doesn't stop you hitting them with a ranged attack even though it negates the damage.

Exactly both of which are not negated by DR, and both are mentioned as such in the same sentence.

Because when this rule was written touch attacks that just did damage did it by weird supernatural means. The most common from of just damage dealing touch attacks are from incorporeal undead. All a ghost has to do is touch you with its corrupting touch and it deals it's damage, by some weird supernatural means like withering or however your DM describes it. It makes prefect sense for these to defeat the DR of Adamantine armour and natural DR of a Barbarian.

Remember this was written when Wraithstrike didn't exist, touch attacks defeating DR isn't what is broken it's Wraithstrike. I agree Wraithstrike probably shouldn't defeat certain types of DR, like a natural DR that represents toughness, like a Barbarian or Demons, but it should defeat other types like Adamantine armour which it will pass right through. Which just goes further to show that Wraithstrike is a badly written spell.

Ok, so, let me see if I can ask this clearly...

Damage reduction reduces physical damage that you take. You get hit with a sword, you take less damage. It does NOT reduce physical damage taken from a spell like shocking grasp. You get touched by a wizard with shocking grasp, and you get physically shocked and damaged because its magical.

Wraithstrike doesn't make the attack magical, it doesn't make the swing of the sword "chilling" or supernatural - it just says that now, when you swing your sword, you don't have to try to bust through your opponent's armor to damage him. Instead, you must merely touch him with your weapon in order to deal that physical, slashing damage from your sword.

So, why would your opponent's ability to be only required to touch you with his sword to cut you negate the fact that you are innately tough, and resistant to damage enough as to reduce it when taken?

 

[Nifft]

It's my humble opinion that the touch attacks referred to in the DR entry are attacks named touch, like those a wraith makes, since those attacks otherwise have no damage type, and since wraiths (and similar) cannot ever get Power Attack or a Strength bonus, and thus would otherwise be easily thwarted by minor DR.

The "touch attack" feats in the SRD are fairly clear that you only get to resolve your attack as a touch attack (not your attack and damage, and certainly not "your attack becomes a touch attack").

Cheers, -- N

 

[RigaMortus2]

So, why would your opponent's ability to be only required to touch you with his sword to cut you negate the fact that you are innately tough, and resistant to damage enough as to reduce it when taken?

Because that is what the rules say?

Logically, I agree with you.

Me personally... I disagree that this is what the rules say. I am of the opinion that what the rules are really saying is that DR doesn't negate your chance to hit someone when making a touch attack. Others are taking it a step further claiming DR doesn't negate your chance to hit or deal damage to someone when making a touch attack.

A touch attack is not damage, it is an attack type (like a ranged attack is an attack type).

If it was worded that DR does not negate ranged attacks, that would mean (to me) that when rolling to hit with a ranged attack, you can ignore the fact that the opponent has DR. When determining damage however, that would be different.

If it was worded that DR does negate ranged attacks, that would mean (to me) that when you make a ranged attack against someone, don't bother rolling, because your attack is entirely negated. You don't even get to the damage dealing phase...

 

[Nifft]

A touch attack is not damage, it is an attack type (like a ranged attack is an attack type).

There is a touch damage type, though. It's what wraiths deal.

IMHO that's what the DR text is talking about.

-- N

 

[irdeggman]

It's my humble opinion that the touch attacks referred to in the DR entry are attacks named touch, like those a wraith makes, since those attacks otherwise have no damage type, and since wraiths (and similar) cannot ever get Power Attack or a Strength bonus, and thus would otherwise be easily thwarted by minor DR.

How about the following "type"

From the SRD

Ability Score Loss (Su): Some attacks reduce the opponent’s score in one or more abilities. This loss can be temporary (ability damage) or permanent (ability drain).

Ability Damage: This attack damages an opponent’s ability score. The creature’s descriptive text gives the ability and the amount of damage. If an attack that causes ability damage scores a critical hit, it deals twice the indicated amount of damage (if the damage is expressed as a die range, roll two dice). Ability damage returns at the rate of 1 point per day for each affected ability.

Ability Drain: This effect permanently reduces a living opponent’s ability score when the creature hits with a melee attack. The creature’s descriptive text gives the ability and the amount drained. If an attack that causes ability drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the indicated amount (if the damage is expressed as a die range, roll two dice). Unless otherwise specified in the creature’s description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) whenever it drains an ability score no matter how many points it drains. Temporary hit points gained in this fashion last for a maximum of 1 hour.
Some ability drain attacks allow a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). If no saving throw is mentioned, none is allowed.

 

[irdeggman]

Here is something interesting - 2 different descriptions of DR.

The SRD has two different texts on DR:

DAMAGE REDUCTION
Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or to ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.

The numerical part of a creature’s damage reduction is the amount of hit points the creature ignores from normal attacks. Usually, a certain type of weapon can overcome this reduction. This information is separated from the damage reduction number by a slash. Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, by magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment. If a dash follows the slash then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.

Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).

Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack, such as injury type poison, a monk’s stunning, and injury type disease. Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.

Attacks that deal no damage because of the target’s damage reduction do not disrupt spells.

Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction.
Sometimes damage reduction is instant healing. Sometimes damage reduction represents the creature’s tough hide or body,. In either case, characters can see that conventional attacks don’t work.

If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.

And

Damage Reduction (Ex or Su): A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.

The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability.

Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage.

Some monsters are vulnerable to certain materials, such as alchemical silver, adamantine, or cold-forged iron. Attacks from weapons that are not made of the correct material have their damage reduced, even if the weapon has an enhancement bonus.

Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Some monsters are vulnerable to chaotic-, evil-, good-, or lawful-aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.

When a damage reduction entry has a dash (–) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction.
A few creatures are harmed by more than one kind of weapon. A weapon of either type overcomes this damage reduction.

A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction. A weapon must be both types to overcome this damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction.

MM (pg 307) has the following text under Damage Reduction (same text in MM III pg 210):

The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

While the DMG (pg 292) has:

Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack (such as fire damage from a fire elemental) or energy drains.

So which one is correct?

 

[irdeggman]

One more source to add confusion to the meaning:

From the PHB pg 307 (I need to check the collectors version to see if there is any “stealth” errata”)I

damage reduction (DR): A special defense that allows a creature to ignore a set amount of damage from most weapons, unarmed attacks, or natural weapons, but not from energy attacks, spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. The number in a creature’s damage reduction is the amount of hit points of damage the creature ignores. The information after the slash indicates the type of weapon (such as magic, silver, or evil) that overcomes the damage reduction. Some damage reduction, such as that of a barbarian, is not overcome by any type of weapon.

 

[Nifft]

How about the following "type"

Unlike a Shadow (for which you'd be totally correct), a Wraith deals hit point and ability damage.

I propose that the "type" of the Wraith's hit point damage is "touch", since that's what's listed, and since that makes the DR rules make sense.

Cheers, -- N

 

[irdeggman]

Unlike a Shadow (for which you'd be totally correct), a Wraith deals hit point and ability damage.

I propose that the "type" of the Wraith's hit point damage is "touch", since that's what's listed, and since that makes the DR rules make sense.

Cheers, -- N

Whereas I would say it is lethal damage which is what it is. It as a natural attack which is incorporeal (per creature description).

The physical attacks of incorporeal creatures ignore material armor, even magic armor, unless it is made of force (such as mage armor or bracers of armor) or has the ghost touch ability.

This doesn't say it is a touch attack, just because the resolution is the same it does not say it is a touch attack.

PHB pg

damage: A decrease in hit points, an ability score, or other aspects of a character caused by an injury, illness, or magical effect. The three main categories of damage are lethal damage, nonlethal damage, and ability damage. In addition, wherever it is relevant, the type of damage an attack deals is specified, since natural abilities, magic items, or spell effects may grant immunity to certain types of damage. Damage types include weapon damage (subdivided into bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing) and energy damage (positive, negative, acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic). Modifiers to melee
damage rolls apply to both subcategories of weapon damage (melee and unarmed). Some modifiers apply to both weapon and spell damage, but only if so stated. Damage points are deducted from whatever character attribute has been harmed—lethal and nonlethal damage from current hit points, and ability damage from the relevant ability score). Damage heals naturally over time, but can also be negated wholly or partially by curative magic.

In order to make the DR rules make sense in this case apply the text from the PHB and MM which state that DR doesn't affect spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities. The