Does the Rakshasa have a too-high CR?

[DM_Matt]

Its not that Raks suck, its that sorcs suck, sorc 7s especially suck, and sorcs with CL-sacrificing template suck even more.

If you extract a human sorc 7 from the Rak, you get sometihng that could arguably be a CR +3 template. Its jsut that the class levels with it are really bad. The other raks in MMIII, ECS, and I hear MMIV are probably a lot better, altouhgh they dont have the exact same rak abilities, but rather ones more tailored to their associated classes.

It would give: Outsider status, hd-->d10, saves to all good, +9 natural armor, claw/bote, Change Shape and Detect Thoughts at will, DR 15/Good and Piercing, SR 20+HD, +2str, +4dex, +6con, +2int, +2wis, +6cha, +4bluff, +4disguise not couinting the +10 from change shape.

Thats better than the half-dragon, not as good as the half-fiend/celest, so its a reasonable slightly weak +3 or very strong +2 template. However, what really makes the Raks bad are the sorc levels.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I think they might be worth it if they got a single sorcerer level's worth of spellcasting ability for free (eg no extra hit points or anything, no extra levels, just boost their casting and give them a 4th-level spell).

On another note, using Detect Thoughts on PCs is kind of hard (to keep secret). Players can surprise DMs; even though the highly intelligent rakshasha may have read their thoughts, the DM can't really know what those thoughts were. He can just try to have the rak not be surprised.

Minion-using creatures should have suggested "groups" with a listed EL for ease of use, too. What do you think the best minions would be? (Classes if humanoid.)

 

[Staffan]

I realized today that there is a pretty Rakshasa-like monster in the MM3: the Protean Scourge. The Scourge is a shapechanging manipulator with spellcasting abilities and some heavy-duty defenses, although they don't disdain melee combat the way the rakshasa do.

The big difference is that the Scourge has a Split ability: when it gets hurt, it splits into two. These two Scourges have separate hp, but share spells. I'm assuming they can't split more than once. I would say that this ability in itself is worth +1 CR: it's not as good as having two scourges (which would be +2 EL), since they don't twice as many total spells, just twice as many actions. With the ability, they're CR 12 - if we lose it, let's call the scourge CR 11.

OK, now let's compare the Rakshasa to the Protean Scourge:

HD: 7 vs 13
hp: 52 vs 110
Speed: 40 ft vs 40 ft + climb 10 ft
AC: 21 vs 23
DR: 15/good and piercing vs 10/silver
SR: 27 vs 24
Full attack: 2 claws +8 (d4+1) and bite +3 (1d6) vs. Scythe +18/+13/+8 (2d4+7/x4) and gore +16 (1d8+2)
Spellcasting: Sor 7 vs Sor 8
Other: Detect thoughts vs Immunity to petrification/poison and cold/electric resistance 10

The Scourge has a much stronger offense (their default spell list is also a little more offensive, although they do focus more on "tricksy" spells), and a little worse defense (easier and lower DR, 3 points less SR, although in part that's balanced by the energy resistances and twice as many hp). The spellcasting is a level better too.

 

[Nifft]

Check this out: here's a Rak I built for combat. The one presented here is the leader of a group -- thus all the tracking and transportation spells. His tactics are simple: charge from absurd range, strike his foe with an embedded vampiric touch or other icky-fun spell from inside his Scimitar, and ride out to absurd range again. Then, recharge his weapon, and repeat.

Tricks used here:

- You can add 1 Outsider HD to a Rak without raising his CR. This is a very nice HD -- it grants +1 to BAB and all saves, plus the usual skill points and HP. That's a nice boost for ANY Rak.

- Outsiders gain proficency with all martial weapons. So, he's qualified for Eldrich Knight automatically, and Knight Phantom with a few skill points and a spell. Since he casts as a Sorcerer, the spell is actually quite a high cost, but the benefits are quite sweet.

- Since he's attacking from such a long range -- 240 ft. move! -- he has time to prep spells like true strike and do a full Power Attack. This would get really gross if I gave him a lance instead of a scimitar, but the scimitar is just too thematic. With a +2 spell-storing Lance, full power attack, his attack bonus would be merely +8 (+28 with true strike), but his damage would be just plain silly: 3d8 + 90, plus 6d6 for vampiric touch, or 9d8 + 270 on a crit (plus 6d6 for v.t.). Nasty, nasty, nasty. Feel free to use this variation if you want your PCs to be real dead, real quick.

I took some liberties with his skill selection. To make up for not really having Elite ability points, I allowed him to add Ride and Concentration to his Outsider skill list, and Bluff and Disguise to his Knight Phantom list. Don't really see this being out-of-theme or overpowered.

A straight-up one-on-one combat guy would probably ditch locate creature and take heroism or haste instead, and would drop plane shift for something more combat-oriented, like greater heroism, true sight or mislead.


Anyway, behold his Ravennous majesty:

Rider of Ravanna -- Medium Outsider (Lawful, Evil) -- CR 16
LE Rakshasa 8 / Knight Phantom 6
Move: 40 ft.
Phantom Steed: 240 ft. (fly, average)

HP: 14d8 + 42 (105 hp)
DR 15/good and piercing

AC: 34 (10 +9 natural +2 dex +7 armor +3 shield +3 ring)
Touch: 18
Flat: 32

Saves: Fort +17, Ref +13, Will +13
SR 33

BAB/Grapple: +14 / +18

Attacks:
Scimitar +20/+15/+10 1d6+6, 18/x2
Bite +13 1d6+2
- or -
Mounted charge +22 2d6+12, 18/x2
- or -
Claws +18/+18 1d4+2
Bite +13 1d6+6

Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 20

Spells (DC 15 + spell level, CL 12):
1 (x8) Ray of Enfeeblement, Protection from Good/Chaos, True Strike, Feather Fall, Comprehend Languages
2 (x7) See Invisibility, Glitterdust, Shatter, Touch of Idiocy, Mirror Image
3 (x7) Phantom Steed, Dispel Magic, Ray of Exhaustion, Vampiric Touch
4 (x7) Dimension Door, Enervation, Locate Creature
5 (x6) Wall of Force, Teleport
6 (x3) Plane Shift

Feats: Still Spell, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack
Skills:
- Bluff (17) +30/+34 (includes detect thoughts +4)
- Concentration (17) +20
- Disguise (17) +30/+44 (includes change shape +10 and detect thoughts +4)
- Listen (11) +13
- Move Silently (11) +13
- Perform (oratory, 11) +16
- Perform (flute, 11) +16
- Ride (17) +19
- Sense Motive (11) +13
- Spot (11) +13

Immune to Detect Thoughts, Discern Lies, any alignment detection.
Detect Thoughts (Su): DC 22
Somatic Prowess: cast in Light armor.
Phantom Steed (Sp): as a standard action, 6/day
Aspect of the Phantom (Su): 6 rounds/day

Loot: Mithral Breastplate +2, Mithral Buckler +2, Spell-Storing Scimitar +2,
Ring of Ravanna (mind shielding, +4 Str, +3 resistance saves, +3 deflection AC)

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I think they are just fine as they are. They are the unseen enemy that the party can never be sure they have eliminated. They are great for attacking and removing one party member and then taking that party member's place. With Detect Thoughts they can always answer questions posed to them by party members in a way that will best eliminate suspicion. If they are clever they can raise the suspicion and then release the captured party member back into the mix and watch the party slay their own ally.

I don't think they are geared to be melee monsters but instead are best used to pick the party apart from the inside and sow distrust because any one of the party members could be the monster.

 

[tzor]

Yes, but we already have that creature. It's called a Doppleganger and it's CR 3. Are the DR, SR and small spell selection worth +6 CR?

But a Rak is not a Doppleganger. A doppleganger is more like an actor, attempting to take the role of someone important to play. A Rakshasa is more like a movie director who always manages to put himself in the scene, only as a stand in, or small part player.

In other words, if the party is currently attacking a group of creatures, the Rakshasa is the begger that is next to the innocents or even possibly the damsel in distress that the party was trying to rescue from the vile villians.

Smoke and mirrors are the principle weapons of the Rakshasa, which means he is only as good as the DM wants him to be. But in the hands of a good DM he can be a TPK.

 

[NilesB]

But a Rak is not a Doppleganger. A doppleganger is more like an actor, attempting to take the role of someone important to play. A Rakshasa is more like a movie director who always manages to put himself in the scene, only as a stand in, or small part player.

More often a Rakasha is a dim witted brute living in the woods, demanding trbute from unprotected villages and devouring travelers.

 

[shilsen]

More often a Rakasha is a dim witted brute living in the woods, demanding trbute from unprotected villages and devouring travelers.

Not in D&D. And even outside D&D, not every rakshasa needs to be called Hidimba.

 

[Agent Oracle]

The problem i think is that the Rakshasa has a High charisma, but only an above-average intelligence and wisdom. This makes it difficult for GM's to perceive them as master manipulators... I think that they need a little bit of a better definition as a monster...

 

[ThirdWizard]

But a Rak is not a Doppleganger. A doppleganger is more like an actor, attempting to take the role of someone important to play. A Rakshasa is more like a movie director who always manages to put himself in the scene, only as a stand in, or small part player.

What keeps a doppelganger from doing the same thing?