Does the Rakshasa have a too-high CR?

[painandgreed]

What keeps a doppelganger from doing the same thing?

7 levels of sorcerer and some pretty decent magical and physical defences.

Then each DM needs to think about why they are doing this. Are either doppelgangers or raksashas part of a larger organization? How ambitious are they? I always pictured doppelgangers as being like cuckoos and taking their place in other races society so they can breed and prosper. Only becoming noticable when their numbers get too large or they get too ambitious. Then the raksashas as being much more evil and ambitious and possibly acting as agents for other outsiders. it could easily be switched around depending on the DM.

 

[Tzarevitch]

In my Eberron campaign, I use rakshasas regularly. Personally, I "correct" their CR to 8. Note that in the Eberron book, the zakya rakshasa which exchanges sorcerer equivelent levels for fighter equivalent levels and a better layout of attributes is a CR 8. With SR about 24, Str of 18 or so, a DR of 15/good and piercing and True Strike 3x per day + chill touch and vampiric touch 1/day or so, in addition to bonus fighter feats and heavy armor and a shield, a zakya can be a tough fight.

MM rakshasas are effective against parties up to about 8th level maximum, and that is pushing it. The rakshasa's third level spells are a joke beyond that, and it has nothing else to rely on for offense. In my experience, in a fight they tend to get overwhemled and slain.

Defensively, their SR is excellent right up until the PCs use spells that don't give SR, and the DR is similarly great against poorly equipped, low level parties but breachable by better equipped fighters. The biggest problem it has is that it doesn't have good enough hp and defenses for a creature of CR 10. It is plenty good at a CR 8 though.

I figure if:
a) 3e assumes that NPC Sor7 has the same CR as NPC ftr7.
b) DMG rakshasa is similar to Eberron Rakshasa zakya with a couple of swaps: swap rakshasa's 17 cha for zakya's 18 str and assume that the slightly higher SR of the rakshasa is an even trade for the effective spell-like abilities that the Zakya gets + a better Con. (Personally I think the zakya gets the better of that trade off).

then it follows that:
c) The rakshasa and the zakya should have the same cr which I argue is closer to the 8 than the 10. Or if anything the zakya with the greater hp, higher AC (it can use heavy armor) and the overall better combat layout should have the higher CR. Instead the zakya's is a reasonably 8, and the rakshasa's is a ridiculous 10. Go figure.


Tzarevitch

P.S. My representations of the Zakya and the MM rakshasa may not be 100% accurate because I don't have the books in front of me, but I am sure they are pretty close.

 

[pawsplay]

I think a better hit die, saves, and BAB is enough to bump the raksasha's CR from that of a 7th level sorcerer to 8. Then bump it again for SR and DR. I think the designers bumped it one more time for change shape and detect thoughts, figuring they would get in an easy ambush. With minions and some kind of surprise, I think they could justify their CR as written, but I think 9 is closer in general.

 

[NilesB]

Not in D&D. And even outside D&D, not every rakshasa needs to be called Hidimba.

And yet can D&D rakshasa cannot be Hidimba, they can only be that guy from that episode of Kolchak the night stalker.

You don't see this as a problem?

 

[Henry]

I'm surprised, as long as this thread's gone on, no one's used a pun about "paper tigers" yet.

As written, I would agree with more of a CR 8 assessment myself, maybe CR 9. However, with only 2 or three more hit dice, they could easily qualify as CR 10.

 

[shilsen]

And yet can D&D rakshasa cannot be Hidimba, they can only be that guy from that episode of Kolchak the night stalker.

You don't see this as a problem?

Nope. I've already got Ogres, Hill Giants, and a lot of other creatures to be Hidimba.

Now a rakshasa that could be Ghatotkacha, I could really get behind. I want a BBEG who's going to get killed, expand to stretch miles in length and crush an army as he falls

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

They should be an 9. They are tougher than a level 7 sorcerer, obviously, but their DR is not such a huge deal at their level, and they are vulnerable to other effects. I would say 8, but their DR with a decent SR is kind of hard to overcome.

I dont rank a level 7 sorcerer a CR 7 either. PC classes are usually much weaker for their CR than monsters (and you get extra loot too).

1st level hill Giant Barbarian or an 8th level human barbarian... theres really no contest the giant is tougher.

 

[MerricB]

I think a better hit die, saves, and BAB is enough to bump the raksasha's CR from that of a 7th level sorcerer to 8. Then bump it again for SR and DR. I think the designers bumped it one more time for change shape and detect thoughts, figuring they would get in an easy ambush. With minions and some kind of surprise, I think they could justify their CR as written, but I think 9 is closer in general.

As written, I think they're CR 8 myself - the spell choice is a 3e spell choice, not a 3.5e spell choice (consider how Haste got nerfed, and Scorching Ray was added).

An interesting thing with CR is synergy - a pair of 7th level barbarians (or sorcerers) is closer to EL 9 than a single barbarian (or sorcerer) is to EL 7.

Cheers!

 

[Gold Roger]

As written, I think they're CR 8 myself - the spell choice is a 3e spell choice, not a 3.5e spell choice (consider how Haste got nerfed, and Scorching Ray was added).

An interesting thing with CR is synergy - a pair of 7th level barbarians (or sorcerers) is closer to EL 9 than a single barbarian (or sorcerer) is to EL 7.

Cheers!

I don't think the spell choice should figure into the CR. After all it's just an example of spells a Rakshasa might choose and Sorcerer with only enchantments has the same default CR as a blasting twinked killing maschine of the same level. Besides, changing the spell selection to something more deadly is a matter of minutes or even seconds.

I guess the Rakshasa is less a drag and drop Monster and more one that requires some forethought.

For one, it's clearly of the ambusher types and CRed under the assumption that it can ambush.

Then it's defenses are very conditional. If the players use more anti SR spells it becomes far easier. If the PC's have a good aligned piercing weapon it becomes far easier. If the players don't have these it can easily TPK with a group that would otherwise whipe the floor with it.

Add to this the fact that it depends highly on how it is played and you can't easily pin it down at one CR. Because of that I prefer it at a to high CR over a to low one. The to high CR means at worst that a few critical battles are easier than planned, while a to low CR means lots of accidental TPK's.

Of course the most important lesson of the Rakshasa isn't that everymonster has to be pinned with an exact CR, but that you can't pin down every monster at an exact CR and that the DMs own judgement will alwayds be of importance as well.

 

[pawsplay]

I dont rank a level 7 sorcerer a CR 7 either. PC classes are usually much weaker for their CR than monsters (and you get extra loot too).

1st level hill Giant Barbarian or an 8th level human barbarian... theres really no contest the giant is tougher.

If that is true, how do PCs routinely defeat higher than level CR monsters? And you don't agree that taking out one 7th level character would probably take 1/4 the resources of four 7th level characters?