Double Weapons and Weapon Finesse

[Wraithdrit]

Weapon Finesse works on light weapons.

Double weapons are treated like a single handed weapon and a light weapon for the purposes of two weapon attack penalties.

Can a double weapon be finessed? Just the off hand part? Neither?

 

[Crothian]

No, while the double weapon might be treated like a light weapon for TWF, it is not a light weapon.

 

[Caliban]

No, while the double weapon might be treated like a light weapon for TWF, it is not a light weapon.

I think the off-hand attack would benefit from weapon finesse. Afterall, you are treating it exactly like a light weapon when you use TWF. You get the reduced damage, you should get the Weapon Finesse, if you have the feat.

 

[Wraithdrit]

I think the off-hand attack would benefit from weapon finesse. Afterall, you are treating it exactly like a light weapon when you use TWF. You get the reduced damage, you should get the Weapon Finesse, if you have the feat.

I think Caliban is right. From the SRD on POWER ATTACK:

"Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon."

I was thinking it was only for the purposes of two weapon fighting that it was considered light, but Power Attack has nothing to do with that so...

 

[Ranger REG]

AFAIC, a double weapon is still physically a two-handed weapon, so you cannot acquire Weapon Finesse for it, even though you fight as if having a one-handed weapon and a light weapon (for the purpose of attacking with said weapon).

The weapon must physically be a light weapon relative to the wielder's size. IOW, I concur with Crothian.

 

[Hypersmurf]

... so you cannot acquire Weapon Finesse for it...[/b]

Well, that's a 3E concern.

In 3.5, you don't take Weapon Finesse for individual weapons. You take the feat once, and it applies to all light weapons.

In 3E, I would have agreed that it would make no sense to finesse a double weapon.

In 3.5, I don't think it's as clear.

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

Mah, I don't know really...

I thought that "treated as a light weapon" was only for the purpose of 2WF. For example, if you use only one of the 2 ends of a double weapon (whichever you use), you don't treat it as a light weapon.

I mean: let's say you have a double sword, one end is flaming and the other is frost (I give them an enchantment so that is easy to distinguish between the two even if the are the same shape - both longsword - and to give a reason why a PC may use one end instead of the other).

Now, if you use only the flaming side (you don't get extra attacks for 2WF but neither the penalties) it is a 2handed weapon with all his benefits to Str bonus. If next round you only use the frost end, it is the same. With this I mean that the weapon is NOT a 1handed+1light weapon. You consider it like this only when you use both ends. If you don't use both ends in the same round, you definitely can't use weapon finesse. Unfortunately (because I think it's really lame...) the rules let you use the second end only for extra attacks, and if you don't take extra attacks you can't for example - if you have BAB +6/+1 - strike once with each, you must strike twice with the same end

When you do use both ends to get more attacks in the full-attack action, you treat them as a 1handed+1light weapon for two purposes: first for Str bonuses and second for 2WF penalties.

It is questionable at least if you must consider the 2nd end light for feats such as Power Attack and Weapon Finesse. I gave this example because the 2 ends of the weapon are identical, but unless you have all the 2WF feats (up to get the same number of attacks with each) every time you use both you choose which end is the main and which is the secondary (this may not be the same if the ends are different).

I am not sure, because by instinct I'd say that Finesse shouldn't apply (although the feat COULD have some benefit for 2WF, and since both are dexterity-based it would make sense). On the other hand, I'd also say that Power Attack shouldn't apply because it's very difficult to be fast (2WFing) and hard (PAing) at the same time, although you could still power-attacking with the 1st end (that is, take the penalty to ALL attacks and the bonus only to attacks with the 1st end).

But as a DM I would have to rule that either:
1) don't consider the 2nd end "light" for feats = Weapon Finesse NO, Power Attack (with both ends) YES
2) do consider the 2nd end "light" for feats = Weapon Finesse YES, Power Attack (with both ends) NO

If I had to choose I'd probably choose the 2nd, anyway.

 

[green slime]

As a house rule (yeah, yeah, wrong forum) I'd have no problem ruling that double weapons be used "finesse" style. And I'd allow the use of Power Attack. Power Attack would still only regard it as a single-handed weapon in this case.

It seems to be consuming a large number of feats in order to do this: Exotic Weapon, Two-Weapon Fighting, Finesse, Power Attack...

And the Power Attack is going to be particularly effective either, or they wouldn't have taken finesse...(Finesse implying that their Dex is greater than their Strength).

Sort of fits the style for the Quarterstaff wielder (who saves a feat at the expense of damage)

I dunno, I guess I'm strange.

 

[Caliban]

The Power Attack feat mentions that you only get the -1 hit/+2 damage bonus if you are using the double weapon as a two-handed weapon.

I think the reverse would apply to Weapon Finesse: It would only apply when using the double weapon as a light weapon and one-handed weapon, and would only apply to the "light weapon" attack.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It is questionable at least if you must consider the 2nd end light for feats such as Power Attack and Weapon Finesse.

It's not at all questionable in the case of Power Attack - the feat text itself references the fact that the off-end of a double-weapon is light.

-Hyp.