Dragon #347

[demiurge1138]

Yeah, congrats to both Shade and BOZ on this one - I haven't read it, but a lot of sweat and toil had to have gone into it all... and if it pleases Shemmie, well! That's very good news indeed! So I'll probably see it, oh, in three weeks or so

Also, as an aside, I'm the guy who wrote the Horrors of the Daelkyr article. They called my monsters twisted! I'm so happy!

Demiurge out.

 

[Hussar]

Sigh, I just got 346 in the mail today. I HATE overseas mail. Ah well, looks like I got some sweet goodies to look forward to next month.

 

[Razz]

Congrats Shade and BOZ for your articles being submitted in there. Though I have yet to receive mine (and crossing my fingers that it comes today), I am sure I'll be pleased reading them through. From what Shemmie pointed out, I am already starting to like it.

Now I understand your comment, BOZ, on the Paizo boards when I mentioned what about the Good-aligned Archomentals, I assume that query was submitted and accepted hopefully?

Quick question for those have have the magazine, how is the Ice Element template different from the Cold Element template from Manual of the Planes?

 

[Shade]

Thanks for all the kind words, everyone. I'm really thrilled with the artwork for the articles. Andrew Hou is my new hero.

Quick question for those have have the magazine, how is the Ice Element template different from the Cold Element template from Manual of the Planes?

The differences are minor, but I really wanted the paraelement creature templates to mirror the paraelementals' abilities. As such, it lacks icewalking, gains a bonus to Dex, has the Air subtype as well as Cold, and a slightly lower LA. I included a sidebar to justify its existence.

 

[Uder]

Cryonax, Imix, and Olhydra are CR22, Ogremoch is CR24, and Yan-C-Bin is CR21.

I was hoping this issue would be useful in extending RttToEE. Does every unique planar being have to be so dang incredibly powerful?

 

[demiurge1138]

I was hoping this issue would be useful in extending RttToEE. Does every unique planar being have to be so dang incredibly powerful?

...yes, otherwise they'd be killed off pretty quickly by, you know, pit fiends and the like. The baseline D&D system assumes that normal non-unique outsiders go from CRs 1-20 (and, in the case of celestials, even higher), so unique individuals, especially those with wide power bases and cults based around their worship, ala the Princes of Elemental Evil, need to be somewhere above that so they make sense in the cosmology as a whole.

That is not to say you're up a proverbial creek, however. The Miniatures Handbook introduced the concept of "Aspects", used to good effect in Red Hand of Doom and the web enhancement of Fiendish Codex I, basically a sliver of power invested by a unique outsider in order to manifest on the Prime Material plane to directly influence events and kick ass. Having stats for a CR 22 Imix or whatever should be handy in reverse engineering yourself, say, a CR 12 aspect that would make for a good RttToEE mini-boss. And the Fiendish Codex's web supplement is available for free on the Wizards website and explains the whole aspect thing and goes into some detail on their designs, which is awfully nice of them.

You also have, probably unwittingly, invoked perhaps the greatest danger possible in a thread on creatures. The topic of relative power levels of unique outsiders. You consider mid-20s to be unreasonably high, but there are some, perhaps even many, who consider this number too low, and an affront to their personal sensibilities! This arguement has consumed many a thread, and it would probably be best to leave it at this.

Demiurge out.

 

[BOZ]

please, let's not get into that whole argument.

our rationale for increasing Imix's power level: RttToEE preceeded the BoVD, and if i'm not mistaken, the ELH as well. so, when Monte was writing that module, he had no other unique planar entities to compare to. working from a 2E perspective on power levels, an Imix of CR under 20 sounded perfectly OK.

then came the eventual power creep of 3E, which brought the power levels to all new highs.

having stats from the BoVD, BoED, and Demonomicon articles, we decided that having an Imix who was that weak by comparison just wouldn't work. do we keep the other archomentals around a similar level to make them match? do we put them where we want but keep Imix weaker? in the end, we decided to stat Imix how we wanted, and call his stats from the module a "lesser aspect".

now, if you like the demon lord stats from FC1 rather than the ones from Demonomicon then you probably also prefer the RttToEE Imix. it shouldn't be a great challenge to knock some HD off the other archomentals and have them at a similar power level.

if you disagree with what we did, well - it is a free county. that's all i have to say about power levels for the article.

 

[Shade]

Other rationale for their power levels:

Elemental monoliths, a step up from elder elementals first introduced in Complete Arcane, are CR 17. They are more powerful than the Imix presented in RttToEE.

The Avatars of Elemental Evil in the MMIV, which are the "living will of a Prince of Elemental Evil" that "contains a tiny fragment of the corresponding prince's essence and exists solely to advance its creator's cause on the Material Plane" are CR 18 (at least the black rock triskelion is). This would seem to necessitate a much more powerful whole made up of these "tiny fragments".

If you are interested in expanding RttToEE at its current level range, either of these groups of creatures would work. After defeating a few of those, the characters will be closer to taking on Yan-C-Bin (CR 21).

 

[Uder]

please, let's not get into that whole argument.

our rationale for increasing Imix's power level: RttToEE preceeded the BoVD, and if i'm not mistaken, the ELH as well. so, when Monte was writing that module, he had no other unique planar entities to compare to. working from a 2E perspective on power levels, an Imix of CR under 20 sounded perfectly OK.

then came the eventual power creep of 3E, which brought the power levels to all new highs.

having stats from the BoVD, BoED, and Demonomicon articles, we decided that having an Imix who was that weak by comparison just wouldn't work. do we keep the other archomentals around a similar level to make them match? do we put them where we want but keep Imix weaker? in the end, we decided to stat Imix how we wanted, and call his stats from the module a "lesser aspect".

now, if you like the demon lord stats from FC1 rather than the ones from Demonomicon then you probably also prefer the RttToEE Imix. it shouldn't be a great challenge to knock some HD off the other archomentals and have them at a similar power level.

if you disagree with what we did, well - it is a free county. that's all i have to say about power levels for the article.

Yeah, I know. I'll probably do something similar to what Shade suggests. Strangely enough, I do prefer the demons from FC1 (from what I've seen), although I might shave off or add a HD here or there to suit a game where I was using them. I would prefer the Princes to be less powerful both because of utility (to fit the game I'm currently running) and because of my vision of them - I guess I just don't think of the Princes as anything more than elder elementals with names and maybe a few more powers.

I've already had to deal with 3.5 power creep because of the Cornugon in the outer fane - I had to play up the rivalry between the Cornugon and the nearby drow not to have that encounter result in a TPK... and the PCs still only manage to drive the thing off, not kill it. Strangely enough they may end up with some devilish allies because of that encounter.

I'm not using Imix as an aspect or anything - if the PCs manage to defeat him (they're in the outer fane now at, gulp, 11th level - so that's a big if) I don't want them to feel cheated or that another group of cultists can get Imix's help to summon Tharizdun somewhere down the line. If they win, they WIN. The same goes for Yan-C-Bin.

I'm halfway to just chucking all the 3.5 outsiders and redesigning them from the ground up for my next campaign... 3.0 may have made some of them too weak, but 3.5 has made many of them too strong.

 

[Razz]

I'm halfway to just chucking all the 3.5 outsiders and redesigning them from the ground up for my next campaign... 3.0 may have made some of them too weak, but 3.5 has made many of them too strong.

Too strong for you.

In my games, I think the Archomentals are rather weak. But I understand BOZ's necessity to base them along the lines of FC1's Demon Princes. To appeal to a wider range of gamers. You should just use monoliths as your archomentals if you think they're too strong.

Personally, the Archomentals in this article are going to be my "aspects" of them. Their real forms are going to be Rank 0 deities, triple HD, and the Paragon template attached along with any other template or possibly class levels I feel like attaching.

Great job, though, BOZ. I hope to see the Good Archomentals soon in an upcoming Dragon issue, too.

Now if only they'd accept your Yugoloth article already...