D&D 5E Dragon Fire - the Drogon Initiative

[dave2008]

Another consideration might be: How likely do you think it is that your players will trade an Attack or Spell action to end the ongoing damage?

I know that when granting a save with a standard action Heal check in D&D 4e was only used in truly desperate situations. And I know that my players at that time were never happy trading an attack to do it. Your players may be different, of course.

If the ongoing damage is also tied to disadvantage and loss of actions, as proposed, highly likely. If it is just ongoing damage it would depend.

 

[CapnZapp]

I am specifically trying to emulate some of the elements of dragon fire visualized in the last GoT episode (here is the scene if your interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yehoQilXYrM ). Such As:

1) Continued aggressive burning: ongoing fire damage
2) Searing pain and disorientation: no reactions and disadvantage on attacks and concentration checks.

In the scene the victims couldn't do anything but wildly attempt to put out the flames engulfing their bodies. I didn't want to take away all actions (PCs are heroes after all), but on second thought I should probably remove bonus actions as well. Maybe I should review the conditions again and see if there is a way to simplify this part. I also thought about imposing a limited blindness, but with disadvantage on attacks instead.

Yeah, well, I feel you bro, but D&D isn't real life (like Westeros is )

IRL it's quite natural to be completely stopped in your tracks by ongoing fire damage.

But it doesn't fit D&D. Otherwise the tactic of staggering one Fireball each round would be much more popular (than it already is).

I'd simply drop that idea, and let the regular Concentration rules operate.

If you don't lose Concentration when an Ancient Red Dragon breathes on you, I don't think the laws of physics apply to you anylonger...

In other words: hit points.

All of this is covered by hit points. As soon as you realize that anyone blindly flailing about, screaming, jumping into water (or simply going up in smoke ) is unusually fanciful variants of "the goblin is at 0 hp. He drops dead" the sooner you realize this.

 

[iserith]

If the ongoing damage is also tied to disadvantage and loss of actions, as proposed, highly likely. If it is just ongoing damage it would depend.

Right. I would therefore just go with the ongoing damage in that case. That gives the players a trade-off which will vary based on the situation. The more hindrances you add to the effect, the more putting out the fire seems mandatory rather than a real choice.

 

[MechaPilot]

After watching the latest GoT episode it got me thinking about dragon fire.

Nothing against you or your idea, but I am so sick of hearing about GoT.

One thing I really liked was the continuing chaos and damage caused by the dragon fire after the initial attack. In 4e I got tired of so many monsters inflicting ongoing damage, so I started dropping it from my monsters designs. However, after seeing the episode I really want to bring it back with a vengeance (for ancient dragons at least). What do you think?

Ongoing damage is good. Represents a nice continual burn, which I'd expect from dragon fire (or demon or elemental fire, or angelic radiance, for that matter).

How about:
Fire Breath (Recharge 5-6). The dragon exhales fire in a 90-foot cone. Each creature in the area must make a DC 24 Dexterity saving throw, taking 91 (26d6) fire damage and is ignited on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature or object ignited by dragon fire cannot take reactions, has disadvantage on its attacks and concentration checks, and takes 21 (6d6) fire damage at the start of each of its turns until it is extinguished. An ignited creature or object can be extinguished with the equivalent of 5 gallons of water or by taking an action and a successful DC 15 Dexterity saving throw to extinguish the flames.

This, I think, begins to model the effects produced by Drogon in "The Spoils of War." Any suggestions.

I like the no reactions thing; it helps mimics the pain and panic of actually being on fire. Disadvantage makes sense, what with being distracted by the flames and pain and all that, but I wouldn't limit it the way you did; as you wrote it, a burning character has no disadvantage on performing a skill/ability check. Also, the DC to extinguish without water seems fine.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I like the visual of victims flailing about in flames and panicking and all, but D&D doesn't generally model damage that way. Getting stabbed in the gut will also seriously limit your activities in the ensuing moments of life, but D&D doesn't care, it's just damage.

Maybe a special rule for creatures reduced to 0 hps by dragonfire? They can be saved if extinguished in a short number of rounds, otherwise they run/flail/roll about, spreading the flames around...? Oh, you could base it on the save: If you save but are still reduced to 0, you're on fire and will die promptly, but someone can save you?

 

[Imaculata]

Couldn't you simply have the dragon create areas that are on fire as Iserith suggested, and deal 1d10 damage to any creature that ends their turn in that area? And every time a creature takes fire damage from the dragon (directly or indirectly), they automatically catch fire (if they wear flammable fabrics), which can be extinguished by spending an action to extinguish the flames. You don't need to be carrying gallons of water, you just need to roll on the ground a bit, and do your best to douse the flames. The target then take 1d10 fire damage each round until the fire is extinguished.

This is pretty much how catching on fire mechanics have worked in older editions.

By the way, 6d6 seems like a bit much for just being on fire. Are the players being hit with dragon fire, or being dowsed with napalm? I would make it a simple 1d10 initial damage for catching fire, and another 1d10 damage each following round that the character is still on fire. This is similar to the effects of a Fire Elemental.

Breath weapons are plenty scary as is. No need to increase the damage that much.

Nothing against you or your idea, but I am so sick of hearing about GoT.

DM's will take inspiration from what ever fantasy movie, book or tv show is really popular at the moment. And GoT is a great show, so obviously people will take inspiration from it for D&D. Besides, there's not that many shows or movies that portray dragons well. I personally like seeing dragons as these absolutely terrifying beasts that spit fiery death upon villages and armies, and that don't talk. The last time I really saw that was in the movie Dragon Slayer, which was released in the same year I was born.

 

[MechaPilot]

DM's will take inspiration from what ever fantasy movie, book or tv show is really popular at the moment.

Well, they'll take inspiration from whatever they like. I think popularity has less to do with it than impact on the individual viewer/reader. Also, it's not like I take issue with people liking whatever they like.

And GoT is a great show. . .

Meh. To each their own. I'm not a huge fan of rape in my entertainment (understandably, given prior experiences I've related here). For me it really ruins what could otherwise be a great show.

. . . so obviously people will take inspiration from it for D&D.

Again, obviously, people will take inspiration from whatever they like. I'm not taking issue with that, and I'm not judging the OP (or anyone else) liking GoT. I'm just getting sick of hearing about the series.

Besides, there's not that many shows or movies that portray dragons well. I personally like seeing dragons as these absolutely terrifying beasts that spit fiery death upon villages and armies, and that don't talk. The last time I really saw that was in the movie Dragon Slayer, which was released in the same year I was born.

Yeah, dragons often aren't done well. I'm sure, at least in part, it's because a lot of the medieval fantasy shows and films that would have dragons in it are often plagued by low budgets. And, when you don't have the budget to go all out practical effects with it, it was often hard to do them justice with CG effects, especially in the early years of CGI when the tech wasn't quite up to the task.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Yeah, well, I feel you bro, but D&D isn't real life (like Westeros is )

IRL it's quite natural to be completely stopped in your tracks by ongoing fire damage.

But it doesn't fit D&D. Otherwise the tactic of staggering one Fireball each round would be much more popular (than it already is).

I'd simply drop that idea, and let the regular Concentration rules operate.

If you don't lose Concentration when an Ancient Red Dragon breathes on you, I don't think the laws of physics apply to you anylonger...

In other words: hit points.

All of this is covered by hit points. As soon as you realize that anyone blindly flailing about, screaming, jumping into water (or simply going up in smoke ) is unusually fanciful variants of "the goblin is at 0 hp. He drops dead" the sooner you realize this.

I thought that scene from the show was a good example of HP. Hopefully this doesn't spoil things but oh well, I'm not smart enough to figure out how the spoiler tags work anymore. When Bronn is on the scorpion and Drogon breathes at him he leaps aside and ends up in the embers of the blast. He really got hit for say 58 damage but he had 75 HP and that was an example of his luck and skill and all those things that go into HP in action.

p.s. are there spoiler tags anymore?

Spoiler

texthere

 

[Imaculata]

Meh. To each their own. I'm not a huge fan of rape in my entertainment (understandably, given prior experiences I've related here). For me it really ruins what could otherwise be a great show.

I'd say its not just the rape. The show has a pretty dour tone overall. The first few seasons have some pretty tough scenes to watch, and the good guys are on the ropes almost none stop. I totally understand that can be a hard thing to watch. But stick with it long enough, and all the villains eventually get what's coming to them. But I think you don't need to like the show to appreciate its portrayal of dragons.

Yeah, dragons often aren't done well. I'm sure, at least in part, it's because a lot of the medieval fantasy shows and films that would have dragons in it are often plagued by low budgets. And, when you don't have the budget to go all out practical effects with it, it was often hard to do them justice with CG effects, especially in the early years of CGI when the tech wasn't quite up to the task.

I don't think it is the budgets actually.... or at least, not just the budgets. There's a lot you can do with practical effects, as Dragon Slayer (1981) clearly shows. I think it is more a case of getting the mythology right. I really hate this trend of friendly dragons that talk. And D&D sure has its share of that, but I've always kept those types of dragons firmly out of my campaigns. I like dragons as a menace. The ultimate foe, that incinerates entire cities and fleets, and rips apart knights in shiny armors. And Game of Thrones may be first in actually portraying dragons like that. Last season gave us a bunch of dragons setting fire to an entire fleet of ships. And this season gives us even more dragon carnage!

Its been especially on my mind in regards to the pirate campaign that I'm currently running. I want my players to fear dragons, and what they could do to their ships. So in that respect I'm totally on board with what the OP is going for: Dragons raining fiery hell down on players.

 

[dave2008]

I like the zone idea, as it is also useful for other dragon breath weapons.

For ongoing effects, maybe a condition is better than damage: you take fire damage from the attack, and then (ongoing) you are blinded (or to get all GoT, frightened [like the Hound is of fire]) until you "stop, drop, and roll" (and wipe any ash out of your eyes) [1 action], someone uses the help action to assist you, you use second wind, or you are magically healed. It is worthwhile to take an action to remove the effect (especially since it doesn't necessarily involve magic), but a PC isn't going to die from ongoing damage, and getting blasted twice doesn't make you twice as blinded or frightened.

I think I might need to think about conditions - I need to review them. However, currently like what I came with + the zones concept.