Dragon Skills

[Grayswandir]

::delurks::

Okay, here's a thorny issue for someone to solve. We'll start with a quote from the Monster Manual:

All dragons start with 6 skill points per Hit Die, plus bonus points equal to Intelligence modifier X HD ... Dragons that can cast spells have the Spellcraft feat for free at 1 rank per Hit Die, provided they have an Intelligence bonus of at least +1 (Intelligence score 12+).

So, as far as I can tell, dragons (unlike PCs!) gain retroactive skill points when their intelligence increases. Furthermore, when a dragon gains the ability to cast spells it suddenly acquires a great many ranks in the Spellcraft skill that it did not previously possess.

Let's look at the Black Dragon for an example (Monster Manual pp. 63-4). A Juvenile Black Dragon has 6 HD, an Int of 10, and no spellcasting ability. So 36 skill points. Advancing to 7 HD, the dragon gains an additional 6 skill points. Upon advancing by one more Hit Die, however, that Juvenile Black Dragon becomes a Young Adult Black Dragon (total 8 HD). It gains +2 Int (Intelligence is now 12, meaning a +1 bonus) and the ability to cast spells as a 1st-level sorcerer. The dragon gains 7 skill points for this Hit Die (6 base + 1 for Int bonus), but also gains 7 retroactive skill points (as if its Int had been 12 all along). It also gains 8 free ranks in the Spellcraft skill.

As far as I can tell by-the-book, the above example is correct. However, it still strikes me as wrong. I realize that this interpretation (the only interpretation that I currently see possible) makes things much easier for the DM when statting up a dragon (and easy is nice), but it violates other 3E principles (e.g. no retroactive skill points for Int increases). Am I missing something (I hope), or should I just shrug and say "Dragons are special"?

 

[Grayswandir]

I also stumbled across stats on WotC's site for the dragon Arauthator. Reverse-engineering its skills, I see that it does indeed follow the above interpretation of the rules. ::Sigh::

 

[graydoom]

Shrug and say "Dragons are special."

This is a problem whenever a creature who started out with a lower intelligence is created at a high level. Usually people just give them all the skill points as if they had had their increased intelligence the whole time.

It would be far more consistent to go through each level and figure out how much skill points were gained and where they go. Would work for dragons, but I suspect it isn't really worth the effort. That's probably the reason that dragons are the way they are currently. Gotta love laziness.

 

[Wolf72]

I'm with graydoom,

spellcraft is a different case, it's more like a special ability expressed in terms of skillpoints. They're dragons they deserve it.

 

[Grayswandir]

I suppose.

Whenever creating a creature who gained Intelligence along the way (NPC Wizards in particular), I always *have* gone back and corrected for the Int gain instead of just granting retroactive skill points. It's much less work than it seems like. But laziness wins over all.

 

[Zerovoid]

Since Dragons don't age very fast, their skill points probably won't change during a campaign, so I don't find this very hard to swallow. Even if they do change retroactively, only the DM has to know.

I'm surprised that dragons don't get 4x skillpoints for their first hit dice. Is this a typo, or will they tend to have alot of skills that aren't maxed out because of this?

 

[Grayswandir]

Not a typo. Monsters in general never get quadruple skill points for their first hit die. In fact, skill points for most monsters works a little strangely - magical beasts, for example, start with double their Intelligence score in skill points, +1 per EHD (almost, but not quite, the same as +1 per Hit Die).

This strangeness doesn't really bother me, since it's at least clearly explained. Still bugged about those retroactive skill points, though - but I admit it probably won't come into play in a campaign. It just seems wrong.

And yes, you're quite correct in noting that dragon skills will probably not be quite maxed out. But with their HD, three ranks either way probably won't make much of a difference.

 

[Wolf72]

Since Dragons don't age very fast, their skill points probably won't change during a campaign, so I don't find this very hard to swallow. Even if they do change retroactively, only the DM has to know.

I'm surprised that dragons don't get 4x skillpoints for their first hit dice. Is this a typo, or will they tend to have alot of skills that aren't maxed out because of this?

just nabbed a random quote. Here's a break down of a white dragon's skill points. MM p62 says that a dragon will pick these skills at 1 rank per HD (listen, spot, search) with those 3 skills in mind this is the break down:

White Dragon Skills: (no mods for high/low abilities taken into account, other than for skill points)

Wyrmling: 12 skp, 3 rnks each in Listen, Spot, Search. +3 left over
Very Young: 24 skp, 6 rnks ea in ... . +6 left over
Young: 36 skp, 9 rnks ea in ... . +9 left over
Juvenile: 51 skp, 12 rnks ea ... . +15 left over
Young Adult: 66 skp, 15 rnks ea ... . +21 left over
Adult: 84 skp, 18 rnks ea ... . +30 left over
Mature Adult: 105 skp, 21 rnks ea ... . +42 left over. 21 rnks free in Spellcraft.
Old: 126 skp, 24 rnks ea ... . +56 left over. 24 rnks spellcraft (free)
Very Old: 150 skp, 27 rnks ea ... . +69 left over. 27 rnks spellcraft (free)
Ancient: 174 skp, 30 rnks ea ... . +84 left over. 30 rnks spellcraft (free)
Wyrm: 198 skp, 33 rnks ea ... . +99 left over. 33 rnks spellcraft (free)
Great Wyrm: 228 skp, 36 rnks ea ... . +120 left over. 36 rnks spellcraft (free)

whew ... dragon skills ain't no joke! next step is to work out the amount of spells known/cast for whites.

fyi: MM p62 mentions that bluff, concentration, diplomacy, escape artist (getting out of hidey holes?), knowledge (any), and scry can be bought for 1 rnk per point. I'm assuming other types of skills would be cross-class for dragons. (note they can not pick exclusive skills)

I think the math is all right. I went thru each age cat and calculated that way, instead of just taking current age.

 

[Grayswandir]

Your interpretation is exactly what I *wanted* the MM to say, and what I could not in good conscience rule that it said.

The text reads "All dragons start with 6 skill points per Hit Die, plus bonus points equal to Intelligence modifier X HD".

So an Ancient white dragon (30 HD, Int mod +2) has 6 skill points per Hit Die (6*30=180) plus bonus points equal to its Intelligence modifier per Hit Die (2*30 = 60). So a total of 240 skill points, three of which per hit die are spent on required skills, leaving (3*30=90, 240-90=150) 150 skill points left to spend. Plus the 30 bonus ranks of Spellcraft.

Note that the MM does *not* say that all dragons start with (6+Int mod) skill points and gain (6+Int mod) skill points per Hit Die beyond the first, which would imply your interpretation. I urge you to look at the semi-official stats I linked to above - that dragon has skill points calculated similarly to the above, i.e. retroactive skill point gain for Intelligence increase.

This goes along with the free ranks in Spellcraft - even per your table, an Adult white dragon has 0 free ranks, while a Mature Adult suddenly has 21 free ranks. Retroactive skill point gain has exactly the same effect - a Mature Adult white dragon, upon gaining an Intelligence modifier of +1 (previously +0), gains an additional number of skill points equal to its Hit Dice. While Spellcraft as a "special ability" does make sense, the two seem to go together mechanically.

Also note that a Mature Adult white dragon is technically a different monster from an Adult white dragon - or at least it's given stats as if it were. A Mature Adult is *not* a hit-die advanced Adult, which would follow normal rules for HD advancement (i.e. no retroactive skill points).

I would *like* to disallow retroactive skill points for dragons. But the more I look at the book, the more convinced I become that "dragons are special".

 

[CRGreathouse]

My dragon generator

http://mwtools.thyle.net/d_gen.html

calculates skill points based on what I believe to be the official version, i.e. retroactive skill points. It automatically calculates the ranks, ability modifiers, and miscelaneous (Alertness, etc.) modifiers. It gives the dragons all of their automatic skills, and at the urging of some of its users, fills in sample skills for the rest.