dread necromancer

bestone

First Post
The reason why it mentions hp, is cause it tells you to reroll them as d12's, i *believe* that lich only says it gets d12 hp. So the entry under true necro is so that you know to re-roll all your hp. It also states your type changes to undead, you dont necessarially die *which is why i assume its pointed out*. Its like anything, if you become a different race, you apply all that races bonuses and penalties to yourself. You do, indeed, apply the lich template (after all, you are a lich now!).

Another note you can use to prove your point, they get craft wonderous item to create thier phylacetry. How do you know what this magical thing does and when you get it? well when you apply the lich template you know you get it for free, and under the lich template it tells you what it does.
 

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Endur

First Post
The LA is built into the class progression. So no +3 La. but you do get all the abilities of being a Lich.
 

Bad Paper

First Post
frankthedm said:
You get the lich template.
Yeah, I assumed as much, but my problem with this is that it is such a sudden transformation. Compare this to the relatively smooth progression of the Dragon Disciple.
 

Kurotowa

Legend
Bad Paper said:
Yeah, I assumed as much, but my problem with this is that it is such a sudden transformation. Compare this to the relatively smooth progression of the Dragon Disciple.

Sudden? The class has Lich features spread out over the whole 20 levels. Negative energy touch, fear aura, damage reduction, fortification, resistance to mental effects. That's almost the entire set right there. They couldn't have more of them without unbalancing the class.
 

Bad Paper

First Post
Kurotowa said:
Sudden? The class has Lich features spread out over the whole 20 levels. Negative energy touch, fear aura, damage reduction, fortification, resistance to mental effects. That's almost the entire set right there. They couldn't have more of them without unbalancing the class.
right, but at 20th level, they not only get Advanced Learning (another ninth level spell? why yes, thank you), but also
  • mad hit points. 20(d6+Con) gets entirely recalculated to 20d12. the DN's hit points can easily double.
  • 60' darkvision
  • Mental Bastion (+4) becomes immunity to sleep, paralysis, stunning, poison, disease, and most Fort effects, crits, ability damage/drain, etc.
  • +5 natural armor
  • fear aura goes from 5' to 60'
  • paralyzing touch
  • +4 turn resistance, not that it would have done any good earlier
  • Damage Reduction doubles to 15
  • immunity to [mind-affecting] (not part of Mental Bastion at all), cold, electricity, polymorph
  • +2 Int, Wis, Cha (!)
  • +8 Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot
  • free phylactery. free!
It's not that I don't want the DN to become a lich. It's that the class is pretty juicy all the way along, and then on top of it there is a massive boost in power at twentieth level. Unless you believe WotC CustServ, in which case the DN gets only the first three things on the list. I don't know of any other class that is structured like this. But I love the class, and don't want to throw it out of the game, either.
 

bestone

First Post
Its not as great as you say

Advance learning? meh whats so great about that? You cant learn more spells, you get the spells on your list + your advanced learning spell (which has to be a necromancy spell, of which you specialize in anyways). Sure its nice, but its no where near as powerfull as you make it out to be. wizards can pick all the spells you want, your stuck with a very very limited list (Its all necromancy!!) and you can pick an extra spell every 4 levels, which has to be....necromancy! smeh. You loose to much not being a cleric or wizard necro to claim this as awesome as i take you to be claiming it.

The hp? well they arent that great, You loose your con (and fort bonus) right now my level 14 dread necro has a +4 con bonus (with equip). d6+4 gives me an average of 7.5 per level, once i turn lich i get an average of 6.5...... Sure i have a potential for more (but then again, anyone can become a necropolitan, even a mage, and that'd give the mage 1d12hp)

The darkvision? smeh, your level 20? is this really that overbuff? (and again, anyone else could get it being a necropolitan)

The mental bastion upgrade - True, but your now undead. A player could be an undead race and get the same benefits.

+5 natural armor - As a mage with light armor this might seem good, but you dont have any other defensive spells in your repertoir. No mage armor, no shield. Nothing, once your level 20 these level 1 spellslots are just dandy to fill with these spells. Mage armor, a level 1 spell, lasting 20hrs? Again, its not that buff imho

Fear aura - This is true, i dont have my mm but if i recall, its not a free action like it is for a dread necro, a dread necro can activate it a dozen times in one round, and fear effects stack. I'll respond on this better when i dig out my mm


Paralyzing touch - Yeah its nice, but your a mage, and you have to get into touch range, which is not always the best place to be. And considering your spell list you dont have any really powerfull blasting spells to stay at range, meaning warriors (who are usually a cake walk for mages) are gonna be a bit more deadly. (of course till they fail thier save)

+4 turn resistance - Well this says it all right here, your now undead, and in the epic level range, with only a +4 bonus. Downside? YOU ARE TURNABLE!! run into an epic cleric of pelor and kiss your putrid buttox good bye! This is a massive detriment

dr doubling - Yes this is good, but its still bludgeoning, its nothing new, just an improvment.

I think really overall, you do get a lot of class features, and while you are levelling you are pretty balanced to other classes. BUT its not like you get all this stuff immediately for free at 20, you (as its been said) have been gaining it slowly as you level. A lot of it doesnt stack with your class features, so you loose out on what you have, for something else.

And you become undead

Remember too, if your not near your phylacetry and someone finds it *gulp*

Besides, you have to hit 20 levels all in dread necro, no dips, no prestige classes. A bit of payoff for all that dedication is worth it. If you check build pages *expecially on the wizards site* you can find super powerfull wizard builds that all usually have multiple dips. I've even seen a few dread necro builds that look pretty nice, all have dips!!

And... no epic progression! there is no epic progression for your class. Meaning at 20, you take lich, then either your dm makes you a progression for your class, or you pick up a new class.

You trade a lot for what you get.

And personally, imho, an equal level epic cleric gone lich, with the large spell list is definetly at advantage against your 20 dread necro/whatever class you take.
 

frankthedm

First Post
Bad Paper said:
It's that the class is pretty juicy all the way along, and then on top of it there is a massive boost in power at twentieth level.
Power boost? Only if Evil PCs are allowed by the DM and will be tolerated by the other party members. Otherwise it is a mandatory retirement plan. ;)

If the lich upgrade seems a problem subtly encourage or insist upon multiclassing by 19. Or just make a substitution level for the DN’s 20th Level.
 
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lukelightning

First Post
I like how they get planar binding but have no way of actually binding the creatures they call, since they can't cast magic circle spells.
 

Bad Paper

First Post
bestone said:
+5 natural armor
This one is a bit strong, and sudden, for me, as well as something you didn't cover, which is the +2 to Int, Wis, and Cha. Also, my problem with the paralyzing touch is that there have been other touch attacks developed all along the DN's career. Why can't paralyzing touch show up sooner?
bestone said:
an equal level epic cleric gone lich, with the large spell list is definetly at advantage against your 20 dread necro/whatever class you take.
yeah, but I think the DN is the only ECL 20 lich that can cast five or six ninth-level spells in a day, yeah? Maybe you can break the Ur-Priest to do that, but whatever, the point is that the DN is cool for this reason.

What would you recommend for epic progression?

bestone, how do you like the DN? Is it fun to play? Over/underpowered? What did you take for your advanced learning? Which feats? Martial weapon? How does the DN fit in with the party, and what do the other players think about it?
 
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