Imperialus
Explorer
I'm really sorry you feel that way Binder. Let me explain what happened 'behind the screen' such as it is to see if I can help shed some light on how things went down from my perspective at least.
Your encounter with Rethar was a random encounter. Your reaction roll was reasonable leaning towards favorable. It also helped that you outnumbered Rethar and he knew that he'd be on the loosing side of any combat. That's what caused him to mention the existence of the dwarven captives. His only motivation was to get you talking so you would be less likely to split his skull, he honestly wasn't negotiating in very good faith. That's why he offered the exchange for such a low number. By playing hardball and making him fear for his life Midgrim managed to successfully negotiate him down.
At this point, the whole thing could have been a done deal and the encounter with Sigur could have been avoided entirely had you agreed to accept a proof of life in note form. There was really no downside to the Orcs in accepting that offer. If you brought the goods, even a dozen axes, they'd give you some captives they didn't know what to do with anyhow. Midgrim turned the note down and demanded that they let a dwarf leave with him because he believed it would likely be a forgery, but I would counter that by asking how many Orcs would know how to write in Dwarven?
The demand to take a living dwarf out of the the dungeon based on a promise was an extremely high bar, and one that IMO requires a huge amount of trust for a chaotically aligned character to even consider. This was really the first turning point towards the negotiations going sour. Midgrim might have been negotiating in good faith, but think of it from the perspective of a creature who's entire worldview revolves around backstabbing, trechery, and 'might makes right'. The Dwarven prisoner could have provided you with intelligence regarding the orcs forces, their defenses, their weaknesses, all sorts of stuff if you weren't negotiating in good faith and instead plan on mounting an armed rescue operation.
Your reaction roll with Sigur was neutral leaning towards hostile. You're right, he is not balanced for an encounter with a first level party, he is the leader of a faction on the second level of the dungeon. You would very likely be well into second level by the time you should be encountering him. In the event that it was a combat encounter you would also likely have allies from other factions on the second level to help you out. Even in straight up combat, he is a 4HD orc chieftain with almost as many HP as the entire party combined. I was actively trying to avoid combat because in a straight up fight your chances of coming out on top were pretty slim.
Now, from Sigur's point of view he wanted the negotiations to succeed as his tribe is in a fight for their collective lives. However, he knew he only had the lives of the dwarves as his bargaining chip and he was pragmatic enough to know that the chances of a future working relationship were slim at best. Orcs and Dwarves would have an exceptionally difficult time working towards a common goal at the best of times. As such he wanted to get as much out of the deal as possible when he had leverage. I mean Midgrim even though that Rethar's demand of 15 axes was low to begin, but still chose to play hardball and aim for a better deal. Sigur's brain went in the same direction, and from the perspective of a chaotically aligned character he felt that no one but him was in a position to negotiate the value of his property. I tried to telegraph this by showing Rethar having been beaten up.
This led to Sigur showing up with a significant show of force in order to re-enforce his negotiating position and his high counteroffer. Now at this point negotiations were still possible, but the price would have inevitably been higher. Midgrim countered with an even lower offer than his first one. At this point Sigur was just flat out insulted and honestly believed that there was no way you were negotiating in good faith. Had Midgrim countered with a more reasonable offer himself, even replacing the swords with axes and offering no armour then Sigur would have agreed, shook on it, given you his captive and walked away. Instead, when faced with an offer that was even worse than what his lackey had negotiated he decided to end the negotiations in a very orcy, manner if for no other reason than to save face. You still could have let him walk away, and either fulfilled his demands or returned in such a manner that the deck was stacked in your favor. Depending on how you spun it after leaving the dungeon you could have either ended up with the dwarves of Adamas supplying you with the requisite items, or rallying a couple dozen strong dwarven warparty to mount a rescue/revenge operation.
When attacked, he chose to flee, due to a failed moral check having lost half his force in a single surprise round. As he fled though, he dropped the flask to cover his escape.
Now, as for the 'fireball' Orc tribes can have shaman's in them with the ability to cast spells of 5th level Clerics. Glyph of warding is a 3rd level cleric spell and as such the tribal shaman can cast it once per day. By inscribing the glyph on a jar filled with Azoth and telling Sigur the command word, he created the item that you encountered. As a 5HD cleric the glyph itself does 2HP of damage per level of the caster which led to the 10 damage dealt to Lief. The exploding Azoth did 1d10 damage, the same as the Azoth you have been using.
Now as for the grabbing of the flask by Klyman I think I did everything I reasonably could to warn you that it might potentially be dangerous. Why would Sigur have dropped something benign, nevermind valuable behind him as he retreated? Even with the detonation, as a dwarf you needed to roll a 15+ chance to take 4HP of damage which would have led to Midgrim surviving, and after that roll failed there was a further 10+ save to pass his saving throw vs. death and survive with 1 HP. If Midgrim had had full HP at the time of the fight then regardless of his save he would have survived.
Even now, negotiations could still be possible. After all you have 3 captive orcs as leverage, you've proven that you are powerful in your own right, and you could still potentially bring this to a conclusion that involves the remaining dwarves being returned alive.
*Edit* I do honestly hope that this helps explain where I was coming from, and that I was not out to railroad you, or screw you over. I really enjoy you as a player Binder Fred, and would like to see you continue the game. Low level AD&D can be very lethal. I mean Jimi went from full HP to dead in a single round a while ago. I can totally, 100% sympathize with how frustrating it can be to loose a PC, and if you want to rejoin with a new PC I'd really look forward to whoever it is kicking in doors for the second expedition into the dungeon. If you do decide to drop out I'd also like to make sure that I've extended a 100% open invitation to rejoin should you change your mind at any point down the road (assuming the game is still going at least) just keep me posted as to what you would like to do.
Your encounter with Rethar was a random encounter. Your reaction roll was reasonable leaning towards favorable. It also helped that you outnumbered Rethar and he knew that he'd be on the loosing side of any combat. That's what caused him to mention the existence of the dwarven captives. His only motivation was to get you talking so you would be less likely to split his skull, he honestly wasn't negotiating in very good faith. That's why he offered the exchange for such a low number. By playing hardball and making him fear for his life Midgrim managed to successfully negotiate him down.
At this point, the whole thing could have been a done deal and the encounter with Sigur could have been avoided entirely had you agreed to accept a proof of life in note form. There was really no downside to the Orcs in accepting that offer. If you brought the goods, even a dozen axes, they'd give you some captives they didn't know what to do with anyhow. Midgrim turned the note down and demanded that they let a dwarf leave with him because he believed it would likely be a forgery, but I would counter that by asking how many Orcs would know how to write in Dwarven?
The demand to take a living dwarf out of the the dungeon based on a promise was an extremely high bar, and one that IMO requires a huge amount of trust for a chaotically aligned character to even consider. This was really the first turning point towards the negotiations going sour. Midgrim might have been negotiating in good faith, but think of it from the perspective of a creature who's entire worldview revolves around backstabbing, trechery, and 'might makes right'. The Dwarven prisoner could have provided you with intelligence regarding the orcs forces, their defenses, their weaknesses, all sorts of stuff if you weren't negotiating in good faith and instead plan on mounting an armed rescue operation.
Your reaction roll with Sigur was neutral leaning towards hostile. You're right, he is not balanced for an encounter with a first level party, he is the leader of a faction on the second level of the dungeon. You would very likely be well into second level by the time you should be encountering him. In the event that it was a combat encounter you would also likely have allies from other factions on the second level to help you out. Even in straight up combat, he is a 4HD orc chieftain with almost as many HP as the entire party combined. I was actively trying to avoid combat because in a straight up fight your chances of coming out on top were pretty slim.
Now, from Sigur's point of view he wanted the negotiations to succeed as his tribe is in a fight for their collective lives. However, he knew he only had the lives of the dwarves as his bargaining chip and he was pragmatic enough to know that the chances of a future working relationship were slim at best. Orcs and Dwarves would have an exceptionally difficult time working towards a common goal at the best of times. As such he wanted to get as much out of the deal as possible when he had leverage. I mean Midgrim even though that Rethar's demand of 15 axes was low to begin, but still chose to play hardball and aim for a better deal. Sigur's brain went in the same direction, and from the perspective of a chaotically aligned character he felt that no one but him was in a position to negotiate the value of his property. I tried to telegraph this by showing Rethar having been beaten up.
This led to Sigur showing up with a significant show of force in order to re-enforce his negotiating position and his high counteroffer. Now at this point negotiations were still possible, but the price would have inevitably been higher. Midgrim countered with an even lower offer than his first one. At this point Sigur was just flat out insulted and honestly believed that there was no way you were negotiating in good faith. Had Midgrim countered with a more reasonable offer himself, even replacing the swords with axes and offering no armour then Sigur would have agreed, shook on it, given you his captive and walked away. Instead, when faced with an offer that was even worse than what his lackey had negotiated he decided to end the negotiations in a very orcy, manner if for no other reason than to save face. You still could have let him walk away, and either fulfilled his demands or returned in such a manner that the deck was stacked in your favor. Depending on how you spun it after leaving the dungeon you could have either ended up with the dwarves of Adamas supplying you with the requisite items, or rallying a couple dozen strong dwarven warparty to mount a rescue/revenge operation.
When attacked, he chose to flee, due to a failed moral check having lost half his force in a single surprise round. As he fled though, he dropped the flask to cover his escape.
Now, as for the 'fireball' Orc tribes can have shaman's in them with the ability to cast spells of 5th level Clerics. Glyph of warding is a 3rd level cleric spell and as such the tribal shaman can cast it once per day. By inscribing the glyph on a jar filled with Azoth and telling Sigur the command word, he created the item that you encountered. As a 5HD cleric the glyph itself does 2HP of damage per level of the caster which led to the 10 damage dealt to Lief. The exploding Azoth did 1d10 damage, the same as the Azoth you have been using.
Now as for the grabbing of the flask by Klyman I think I did everything I reasonably could to warn you that it might potentially be dangerous. Why would Sigur have dropped something benign, nevermind valuable behind him as he retreated? Even with the detonation, as a dwarf you needed to roll a 15+ chance to take 4HP of damage which would have led to Midgrim surviving, and after that roll failed there was a further 10+ save to pass his saving throw vs. death and survive with 1 HP. If Midgrim had had full HP at the time of the fight then regardless of his save he would have survived.
Even now, negotiations could still be possible. After all you have 3 captive orcs as leverage, you've proven that you are powerful in your own right, and you could still potentially bring this to a conclusion that involves the remaining dwarves being returned alive.
*Edit* I do honestly hope that this helps explain where I was coming from, and that I was not out to railroad you, or screw you over. I really enjoy you as a player Binder Fred, and would like to see you continue the game. Low level AD&D can be very lethal. I mean Jimi went from full HP to dead in a single round a while ago. I can totally, 100% sympathize with how frustrating it can be to loose a PC, and if you want to rejoin with a new PC I'd really look forward to whoever it is kicking in doors for the second expedition into the dungeon. If you do decide to drop out I'd also like to make sure that I've extended a 100% open invitation to rejoin should you change your mind at any point down the road (assuming the game is still going at least) just keep me posted as to what you would like to do.
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