E6: The Game Inside D&D

[Frostmarrow]

I think it's possible to run PrCs from the start in E6. Prerequisites are transformed into bonus feats and then you gain levels in the PrC of your choice up until 6th level.

I don't think a PrC outshines a basic class. Besides all viable, as in DM-approved, PrCs are available to any player.

Look at the Duelist:

d10

Bonus feats:
Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse

Progression:
1st +1 +0 +2 +0 Canny defense
2nd +2 +0 +3 +0 Improved reaction +2
3rd +3 +1 +3 +1 Enhanced mobility
4th +4 +1 +4 +1 Grace
5th +5 +1 +4 +1 Precise strike +1d6
6th +6 +2 +5 +2 Acrobatic charge

Class Skills
The duelist’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points at Each Level
4 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
The duelist is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, but no type of armor or shield.

Canny Defense (Ex)
When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

Improved Reaction (Ex)
At 2nd level, a duelist gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks.

Enhanced Mobility (Ex)
When wearing no armor and not using a shield, a duelist gains an additional +4 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity caused when she moves out of a threatened square.

Grace (Ex)
At 4th level, a duelist gains an additional +2 competence bonus on all Reflex saving throws. This ability functions for a duelist only when she is wearing no armor and not using a shield.

Precise Strike (Ex)
At 5th level, a duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, gaining an extra 1d6 damage added to her normal damage roll.

When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield. A duelist’s precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike. At 10th level, the extra damage on a precise strike increases to +2d6.

Acrobatic Charge (Ex)
At 6th level, a duelist gains the ability to charge in situations where others cannot. She may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, she may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

I think it's possible to run PrCs from the start in E6. Prerequisites are transformed into bonus feats and then you gain levels in the PrC of your choice up until 6th level.

I'm sure there's Prestige Classes that'll outshine the core classes, which is probably a problem for some folks out there. Personally, it doesn't matter to me that much. If you're actually starting out with a PrC instead of a base class.

If you're allowing PrCs, chances are that people are going to be more keen on those than the base classes anyway.

Instead of jumping through all sorts of funky hoops and trying to do some sort of capstone feat-chain and all that, I'd just treat 'em as a base class and move on from there. If there's some sort of special PrC ability that kicks all kinds of ass, and OMG IT'S SO UNFAIR TO OTHER PLAYERS!!! either remove the offending ability outright, or simply make it cost an additional feat. It's not that hard.

From what I've seen, PrCs often seem to be one-trick ponies. So they might get a cool gimmick or whatnot, but they're running a decent chance of being weaker compared to a full class.

Then again, I don't believe in forcing players to have to earn the right to be cool with their character. Some folks want to use E6/E8 as a way of capping player power, I use it as a way of making the game (and my life as a GM) easier.

_Very_ different philosophies. People that are looking at E6/E8 should think about _why_ they're doing it (restricting players/making GM's life easier) and adjust accordingly.

 

[wolfpunk]

Uhmm, just off the top of my head, one prestige class that would break the E6 mold would be the Ur-Priest, since if I recall correctly, they gain access to a new level of spells at each level. If that is correct he would have access to 6th level divine spells when he got to 6th level.

Other than that, I have thought of the same idea myself, and I think plenty of prestige classes could be used as base classes without much of a problem. Perhaps give it a try and let us know how it goes.

 

[vagabundo]

Hmm it might be an interesting experiment to only allow PrCs and no base classes.

They tend to have a strong focus, it would be similar to the Warhammer Careers model.

Here is the list from the SRD:

Prestige Classes
Arcane Archer
Arcane Trickster
Archmage
Assassin
Blackguard
Dragon Disciple
Duelist
Dwarven Defender
Eldritch Knight
Hierophant
Horizon Walker
Loremaster
Mystic Theurge
Shadowdancer
Thaumaturgist

Looking at the list, I think, it would have to be expanded a bit. Not sure if there is a database of OGL classes out there. All the splats came out with extra PrC's so you could have a very functional list of classes quite quickly.

The base classes of the world would be the NPC, the PC's would be special!

 

[Sanglorian]

Hmm it might be an interesting experiment to only allow PrCs and no base classes.

I would recommend making both base and prestige classes available. Sometimes, the base class fills a niche better than a prestige class does - and it seems unfair to limit (typically) less powerful classes in favour of more powerful classes.


If you do a bit of rummaging around, you can find plenty of prestige classes here (as well as some base classes).

 

[vagabundo]

I would recommend making both base and prestige classes available. Sometimes, the base class fills a niche better than a prestige class does - and it seems unfair to limit (typically) less powerful classes in favour of more powerful classes.


If you do a bit of rummaging around, you can find plenty of prestige classes here (as well as some base classes).

Ahhh that is the list I was looking for, thanks.

True, using only PrCs it might be hard to find a particular Character concept. But for my players they tend to make Character decisions very impulsively. If I gave them a list of classes - from a PrC list - they would play what sounded cool to them, otherwise they tend to be very conservative and generic in their class selection.

I'm not sure how viable a long term game would be using only PrC's but it would be interesting to see if it broke them out of their rut regarding class selection.

 

[wolfpunk]

Been thinking about the prestige class as base class concept. There are definitely some prestige classes that I think would make great six level classes. Prestige Classes like the Eldritch Knight are perfect for creating that fighter mage in a low level campaign. Heck if you do e7 or e8 you could start as an eldritch knight and if you played human you could take the required armor feats and actually take levels of spellsword as a prestige class and you would have an armored caster.

I definitely think that if you went on a case by case basis you could go through the DM Guide and most splat books fairly quickly to determine which prestige classes fit into the power level and which ones do not.

Then again, even some classes like assassin grant a pretty good ability in their first level or two. You could easily house rule a list of PrC that can be accessed at 5th or 6th level with a set of reduced criteria.

Personally I think a 6th level Blood Magus would make a great bbeg in an e6 campaign.

 

[vagabundo]

I dont think the power differential would be that great. I think it would be manageable at the levels 1-6 and players could make really interesting characters using PrCs. PrCs always had a more focused and, usually, interesting fluff. This could focus a game or setting and add an extra dose of flavour that can be missing from a standard DND game.

It would probably be possible to expand the paragon race classes. So you could have a 6th level Dwarf. Or it would be possible to run a very old style basic DND game using 3e E6 rules.

 

[Sanglorian]

It would probably be possible to expand the paragon race classes. So you could have a 6th level Dwarf. Or it would be possible to run a very old style basic DND game using 3e E6 rules.

You're pretty much in luck: these paragon classes go from level 1 to 5, so you've only got to add one level.

---

One idea suggested at E6's very beginning was running SWSE6: Star Wars with the E6 rules. SWSE works particularly well because it follows a steady talent-feat-talent-feat-talent-feat progression, so when you hit epic level you can keep acquiring feats and talents.

In SWSE6 I would allow people to progress up the class features line of a prestige class, one step per talent/feat they give up (as long as they meet all the prestige class' prerequisites besides BAB and level). So for example a level 9 jedi could have the feats, features and talents of a 9th level jedi or a jedi 6/force adept 3, etc.

 

[Kingreaper]

I'm considering running a variation of this using the gestalt rules.

Everyone starts at about level 5, with 2 or 3 of those levels being levels of Commoner (modified to have d8 hitdie and a good fortitude) or Aristocrat (with d4 hitdie); and the rest being levels of classes of their choice.

After hitting 6, I'm gonna let them add new class levels in gestalt with their old ones, in exchange for not taking the feats at that point. (probably meaning they'll soon be rid of any meaningful influence from the commoner or aristrocrat levels)

Are there any major problems with this approach? I haven't finalised balance on commoner V Aristocrat, any hints? (or advice on how to balance in the other NPC classes as well)